Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

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Should "fresh off the boat" exiles get sunpebbles?

Yes!
33
79%
No! (Reasons why would be appreciated.)
0
No votes
Down with the system - sunstones for all!
7
17%
Better idea - reason below.
2
5%
 
Total votes: 42

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by noivad » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:15 pm

Cinnamon wrote:
noivad wrote:
Fogtripper wrote: Being powerleveled with zero risk. How "wonderfully" exciting.
I know of a newb that had a blast at my hunt last week even with the safety net out so to speak. What's wrong with a safety net that takes seconds and not minutes to respond?
While it is good community-wise, I think someone truly brand spanking new would learn more skills more quickly without a safety net. Also, how does it impact how they train? Will they know they need more ranks to hit stuff, swing more often, regain balance, survive longer, when they have the "net" right off the bat?
Every noob doesn't have to subscribe to either of your opinions on every hunt. Some hunts can be pure noob hunts and some hunts can be safety net hunts and everyone can pick their own fun for themselves.[/quote]

I never said anyone had to subscribe to my opinions, I just don't want someone elevating their views akin to religions' views on other religions. "Our is the only right way to think!" type of thing. Which is how Xep's approaching it. He can't seem to appreciate some people might like this way of doing things, and some might not even realize there's a safety net.

If newbies don't want a safety net I can easily pull out a newbie to hunt with them, then they only have experience to guide them, or I can leave altogether. It's funny the way you guys make it sound, it's like you think I don't let them scrape their elbows and fall a bit so they can learn to appreciate good hunting techniques. I very well let some people fall or get seriously injured when I see them doing something foolish.

Anyway, none of this invalidates the idea of letting people listen in on the SS chatter. I think it's absurd to put forth the argument that newbies have too much to learn already (it's like saying someone shouldn't learn to walk and chew gum at the same time) or that they'll feel isolated from the community WITH the ability to only hear chatter. (I know I sure feel isolated more when I can only listen to the radio :roll: .) Those are frankly silly arguments that are beneath the posters of them, IMO.
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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Cinnamon » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:18 pm

noivad wrote: I just don't want someone elevating their views akin to religions' views on other religions. "Our is the only right way to think!" type of thing.
ah thanks
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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Maeght » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:54 pm

noivad wrote: Anyway, none of this invalidates the idea of letting people listen in on the SS chatter. I think it's absurd to put forth the argument that newbies have too much to learn already (it's like saying someone shouldn't learn to walk and chew gum at the same time) or that they'll feel isolated from the community WITH the ability to only hear chatter. (I know I sure feel isolated more when I can only listen to the radio :roll: .) Those are frankly silly arguments that are beneath the posters of them, IMO.
This might be true, if these noobs had the basic skills. Instead they do not. Overpowered healers are teaching them that they don't have to time their swings, don't have to watch where they attack, and don't have to learn the ability to swing once or twice, let alone avoid swinging out.

And yes, you'd feel more isolated if the radio guy was talking to all his listeners except you.

People learn from mistakes. Let the noobs make theirs.

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by noivad » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:30 pm

Maeght wrote:
noivad wrote: Anyway, none of this invalidates the idea of letting people listen in on the SS chatter. I think it's absurd to put forth the argument that newbies have too much to learn already (it's like saying someone shouldn't learn to walk and chew gum at the same time) or that they'll feel isolated from the community WITH the ability to only hear chatter. (I know I sure feel isolated more when I can only listen to the radio :roll: .) Those are frankly silly arguments that are beneath the posters of them, IMO.
This might be true, if these noobs had the basic skills. Instead they do not. Overpowered healers are teaching them that they don't have to time their swings, don't have to watch where they attack, and don't have to learn the ability to swing once or twice, let alone avoid swinging out.

And yes, you'd feel more isolated if the radio guy was talking to all his listeners except you.

People learn from mistakes. Let the noobs make theirs.
That's funny because the newbies I've been hunting with do learn this stuff soon enough. I also teach them how to drop things and luring. So, really, IMO, it's just a matter of perspective.
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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Khural » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:16 pm

noivad wrote: I'm thinking a sun pebble "vendor" in TC, say in the town hall. That hands them out like the guy who gives out clubs: free.
I want to redirect people to this as it seems like an awesome suggestion: Instead of starting off with sunpebbles at default, have them be available in the town hall. That way, the FotB can be directed to grab one by a veteran, who would then be given an opportunity to explain the sunstone network and what it's for. Additionally, have a second NPC next to the sunpebble barterer explain about the sunstone network, what the sunpebble does, and talk briefly about sunstones. That gets the newbie to ask questions, and seek out vets for clarification.

Thoughts?

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Michael » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:21 pm

Khural wrote:
noivad wrote: I'm thinking a sun pebble "vendor" in TC, say in the town hall. That hands them out like the guy who gives out clubs: free.
I want to redirect people to this as it seems like an awesome suggestion: Instead of starting off with sunpebbles at default, have them be available in the town hall. That way, the FotB can be directed to grab one by a veteran, who would then be given an opportunity to explain the sunstone network and what it's for. Additionally, have a second NPC next to the sunpebble barterer explain about the sunstone network, what the sunpebble does, and talk briefly about sunstones. That gets the newbie to ask questions, and seek out vets for clarification.

Thoughts?
We are well past the point that these kinds of things should need to be explained. People are now used to the idea of chat channels and the ability to send messages to other players, in fact they are pretty much standards in any MMO and have been for a long time. Having to get an item to do it only makes it more confusing, not less so.

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Maeght » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:30 pm

Khural wrote: I want to redirect people to this as it seems like an awesome suggestion: Instead of starting off with sunpebbles at default, have them be available in the town hall. That way, the FotB can be directed to grab one by a veteran, who would then be given an opportunity to explain the sunstone network and what it's for. Additionally, have a second NPC next to the sunpebble barterer explain about the sunstone network, what the sunpebble does, and talk briefly about sunstones. That gets the newbie to ask questions, and seek out vets for clarification.

Thoughts?
If you're going to give them out, then I would suggest that instead of dispenser, you have questgivers in town hall. Explain what the sun pebble is and tell them for a nominal fee they can buy one. Have a quest where you direct them to kill a scavenger bird to get a feather (drop rate while on quest = 100%) from west beach, a wheat from north farm, a hops from south and where to vend them.

There is very little you get in game for no work. I think it's a mistake to give things away.

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Khural » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:07 pm

I think there's two flaws to your suggestion: One, is that a lot of people coming in are probably already wise to the 'arbitrary, redundant quest' function, and would feel jaded from the thought of getting random junk for an item that can be circumvented by getting an actual sunstone. Two, that quest relies on the player having to relentlessly 'farm' for items that most exiles like myself rarely encounter. (I've only ever gotten hops on one occasion. I've had a few lucky finds with wheat, but other than that...)

You seem to be missing the actual point of what the sunpebble is for, and are instead going, 'oh no, an item in CL offered for free? Newcomers must work to have ANYTHING in the game, regardless of its actual value!!' Adding a quest to find random spawning items in extremely dangerous areas (even close to 2nd circle, Khural still gets owned on a frequent basis by rats in N field), for an item that's obsolete by design, is a ridiculous concept.

The point of the sunpebble is that in the long-term it's worthless. It's a trainer's item, a radio, an opportunity to learn about the sunstone network at an early beginning. It's to showcase to them the importance of communication in CL and that it's not taken for granted, as well as assuring them that yes, people are having far-off adventures and wouldn't you like to train hard to join them?

Frankly, attaching a price tag to a starter item because nothing in Clan Lord must ever be free is a self-defeating method. If the GMs agree with your philosophy, it's no wonder that population growth is a problem.

EDIT 1: Sorry Michael, I missed your post initially and I'm finding it a lot more difficult to come up with a reply to yours than I did with Maeght's... gimme a sec to formulate my thoughts.

EDIT 2:
Michael wrote: We are well past the point that these kinds of things should need to be explained. People are now used to the idea of chat channels and the ability to send messages to other players, in fact they are pretty much standards in any MMO and have been for a long time. Having to get an item to do it only makes it more confusing, not less so.
I totally understand where you're coming from, to be honest. After playing City of Heroes and Neverwinter Nights, I'm used to sending tells and such in other games. But the sunstone network has personal value to me - I don't agree on the price of the item as it is (nor do I think that having it fluctuate in price is a good thing), but I do think that its value as an item, and having to keep it maintained, is an important part of what makes CL stand out from other games.

It's not a practical method of communication, but I don't think that makes it flawed - just part of the design choice, both as an in-game explanation for why characters can communicate telepathically with each other, as well as an item that, due to its need for maintenance, gives another function to the more esoteric of CL's three classes.

Or maybe it's just a sentimental thing for me. =)
Last edited by Khural on Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Maeght » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:34 pm

Khural wrote:I think there's two flaws to your suggestion: One, is that a lot of people coming in are probably already wise to the 'arbitrary, redundant quest' function, and would feel jaded from the thought of getting random junk for an item that can be circumvented by getting an actual sunstone. Two, that quest relies on the player having to relentlessly 'farm' for items that most exiles like myself rarely encounter. (I've only ever gotten hops on one occasion. I've had a few lucky finds with wheat, but other than that...)
I'm sorry, I thought the magic spawn was assumed from my suggestion that the scavenger bird drop was 100%. My mistake.
Khural wrote: You seem to be missing the actual point of what the sunpebble is for, and are instead going, 'oh no, an item in CL offered for free? Newcomers must work to have ANYTHING in the game, regardless of its actual value!!' Adding a quest to find random spawning items in extremely dangerous areas (even close to 2nd circle, Khural still gets owned on a frequent basis by rats in N field), for an item that's obsolete by design, is a ridiculous concept.
I know what it's for. I said North Farm, not North Field.
Khural wrote: The point of the sunpebble is that in the long-term it's worthless. It's a trainer's item, a radio, an opportunity to learn about the sunstone network at an early beginning. It's to showcase to them the importance of communication in CL and that it's not taken for granted, as well as assuring them that yes, people are having far-off adventures and wouldn't you like to train hard to join them?
They're in and around town. Odds are, they're going to be hearing people talking about adventures as they return from those far away places. It doesn't take that long for newbies to find out about sunstones and not that much longer to get them.
Khural wrote: Frankly, attaching a price tag to a starter item because nothing in Clan Lord must ever be free is a self-defeating method. If the GMs agree with your philosophy, it's no wonder that population growth is a problem.
Population growth is a problem for a variety of reasons. I don't think that one ranks in the top 5.

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Gloria » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:35 pm

I think it would be a good idea to have sunpebbles in the town hall. They should be easy to get for newbies (and free!), in opposition to the harder-to-get sunstones. I am against having anyone being designated to explain the sunstones and sunstone network. (ooc a NPC) Nothing 'Mystic'al in nature is ever explained this way it seems. This doesn't mean I am against newbies asking about it and people being able to answer.

Also it'd be really nice to have mystics playing a major role in 'creating' sunpebbles before they are generally available.
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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Khural » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:03 pm

Gloria wrote:I think it would be a good idea to have sunpebbles in the town hall. They should be easy to get for newbies (and free!), in opposition to the harder-to-get sunstones. I am against having anyone being designated to explain the sunstones and sunstone network. (ooc a NPC) Nothing 'Mystic'al in nature is ever explained this way it seems. This doesn't mean I am against newbies asking about it and people being able to answer.

Also it'd be really nice to have mystics playing a major role in 'creating' sunpebbles before they are generally available.
The 'mysterious, mystical nature' of the sunstone is not that hard a concept to grasp. It's an item that allows you to be communicate with other exiles. I think even the lowest, stupidest NPC peasant of Puddleby can grasp what sort of use that could have. Purposefully obfuscating an item for the intention of making it a MYSTERY! seems like yet another self-defeating method.
Maeght wrote: I'm sorry, I thought the magic spawn was assumed from my suggestion that the scavenger bird drop was 100%. My mistake.
Thank you for the clarification. All the same, the need for a task reminds me of the healer's quest of looking for random NPC item-givers - it's a time-waster, and extremely annoying not only for excrutiatingly fragile FotBs, but returning players who just want to get on with the show and start healing people. The fighter quest, at least, gives a motivation that you can work toward - the healer's quest appears to serve no practical function whatsoever, other than to keep FotBs needlessly busy - when they could be embarking on the long journey of catching up with the rest of the highly skilled exile population.
Khural wrote: I know what it's for. I said North Farm, not North Field.
Indeed, but north field spawns those things too, and the farms are pretty dangerous on their own. Vermine, bloodthorns, giant slugs, myrm scouts and workers... going out into the open for a newbie that doesn't know what they're doing is suicide, and the population is not big enough that we can assume that they automatically have help.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that you're suggesting the creation of a big, risky quest for an item that is OBSOLETE BY DESIGN, and can be circumvented by a generous exile with too much money. What's the point of implementing it in the first place, if we're going to deny FotBs free access to it?

Khural wrote: They're in and around town. Odds are, they're going to be hearing people talking about adventures as they return from those far away places. It doesn't take that long for newbies to find out about sunstones and not that much longer to get them.
Not in the wee hours. When it's late by North American time, the population drops from 8-12, or even later as low as four or five. And even at peak hours, you're still relying on random people hanging around town center when they could be off doing their own activities. The FotB has NO way of knowing what's going on in the world outside of random info drops from exiles speeding off to their next hunt.

And without the generosity of an exile, 500-600c is a VERY, VERY, VERY high price for a 1st circler. It only took me a short while to get that sum as Khural because I was already connected with a bunch of people who were willing to hunt with me. (Also, because I've had experience with the game itself and know all the places to go for coins and how not to be a detriment.) Most FotBers are still learning how not to fall and how to tag - without relying on someone else, it'd probably take more than a couple of months to amass funds for a sunstone, when becoming a 2nd circle fighter takes two to three weeks at the LEAST!

I'm not against scrapping the system as it is - I'm just supporting the idea that maybe there should be a little something for the guys that slip between the cracks and aren't immediately supported by a patron veteran in getting the necessities to play in CL.
Khural wrote: Population growth is a problem for a variety of reasons. I don't think that one ranks in the top 5.
I'd disagree with you - not in the scarcity of sunstones, but in the philosophy that integrating newcomers into the game must be as challenging as possible for them - because this is Clan Lord, and that's how things roll. If that is indeed an obstacle in making the game more accessible (which I hope it isn't, as I find it to be frankly a close-minded and delusional approach to luring newcomers), then that is VERY MUCH in the top five problems of CL.

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by xepel » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:17 pm

Khural wrote:
Maeght wrote: Population growth is a problem for a variety of reasons. I don't think that one ranks in the top 5.
I'd disagree with you - not in the scarcity of sunstones, but in the philosophy that integrating newcomers into the game must be as challenging as possible for them - because this is Clan Lord, and that's how things roll. If that is indeed an obstacle in making the game more accessible (which I hope it isn't, as I find it to be frankly a close-minded and delusional approach to luring newcomers), then that is VERY MUCH in the top five problems of CL.
This. Khural said what I've been trying to say to you. It's delusional to think that we're going to attract people by forcing them to struggle to just *listen* to the main form of communication in the lands.

Best of luck in convincing him, Khural. I tried but I stopped after I realized we were going in circles...
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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Maeght » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:47 pm

Khural wrote: And you still haven't addressed the fact that you're suggesting the creation of a big, risky quest for an item that is OBSOLETE BY DESIGN, and can be circumvented by a generous exile with too much money. What's the point of implementing it in the first place, if we're going to deny FotBs free access to it?
The point is the difference between a 50 coin Sunpebble relatively easily accessed in and around town, and a 500+ sunstone accessed with more difficulty.

We're making it quite a bit easier with the proposal of the Sunpebble.
Khural wrote: The FotB has NO way of knowing what's going on in the world outside of random info drops from exiles speeding off to their next hunt.
Plenty of hunts cool down in TC after the hunt and just before people hit the lib.
Khural wrote: And without the generosity of an exile, 500-600c is a VERY, VERY, VERY high price for a 1st circler. It only took me a short while to get that sum as Khural because I was already connected with a bunch of people who were willing to hunt with me. (Also, because I've had experience with the game itself and know all the places to go for coins and how not to be a detriment.) Most FotBers are still learning how not to fall and how to tag - without relying on someone else, it'd probably take more than a couple of months to amass funds for a sunstone, when becoming a 2nd circle fighter takes two to three weeks at the LEAST!
We were mostly talking about the Sunpebble at a much lower cost of entry.
Khural wrote: I'm not against scrapping the system as it is - I'm just supporting the idea that maybe there should be a little something for the guys that slip between the cracks and aren't immediately supported by a patron veteran in getting the necessities to play in CL.
There are always going to be people that slip between the cracks. People on offpeak, people who can't really socialize, people that only want a solo game. Exiles are generous to a fault. FOTB noobs pretty much get mobbed during US prime time. I don't think you're going to cover all the bases, and I don't think compromising the style of the game for one little freebee is going to make a huge difference in retention.
Khural wrote: I'd disagree with you - not in the scarcity of sunstones, but in the philosophy that integrating newcomers into the game must be as challenging as possible for them - because this is Clan Lord, and that's how things roll. If that is indeed an obstacle in making the game more accessible (which I hope it isn't, as I find it to be frankly a close-minded and delusional approach to luring newcomers), then that is VERY MUCH in the top five problems of CL.
Not handing them a free Sunpebble is not making the game as challenging as possible.

There is a difference between luring and retaining players. Every game has stuff you do before you're *really* playing the game. Clan Lord really has very little of that, unless you define the game as only the high end content.

Are we really talking about noobs complaining that the game isn't working for them, or what we imagine noobs will think when they get here? I mean, you fire up the client and log in, and you know you aren't getting a hi tech experience with a ton of features.

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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Gloria » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:45 am

Khural wrote:The 'mysterious, mystical nature' of the sunstone is not that hard a concept to grasp. It's an item that allows you to be communicate with other exiles. I think even the lowest, stupidest NPC peasant of Puddleby can grasp what sort of use that could have. Purposefully obfuscating an item for the intention of making it a MYSTERY! seems like yet another self-defeating method.
I mean this more subtly, and I think the subtlety is important around sunstones, sunpebbles. For example, I don't think Elendil says what sunstones are for. My vision has someone handing out sunpebbles (for free! with no quest component!) in town hall with the simple: 'Gloria, would you like a sunpebble?' You would learn about sunpebbles by asking around, being told, or from using it. : )
Khural wrote: Thank you for the clarification. All the same, the need for a task reminds me of the healer's quest of looking for random NPC item-givers - it's a time-waster, and extremely annoying not only for excrutiatingly fragile FotBs, but returning players who just want to get on with the show and start healing people. The fighter quest, at least, gives a motivation that you can work toward - the healer's quest appears to serve no practical function whatsoever, other than to keep FotBs needlessly busy - when they could be embarking on the long journey of catching up with the rest of the highly skilled exile population.
I must disagree! The healer's quest is very important because it imparts the three virtues of healing to every would-be healer. It's important that would-be healers know about what healing entails before making that commitment. Not just anyone can be a healer or is right for healing. As a healer, I can't speak about the fighter's quest, but as a fighter you can't fully speak to the healer's quest.

And of course I disagree about 'catching up'. Catching up is an impossible goal and would drive most people mad. I realise that there are exceptional cases, like Kerrah that I've heard about. I have found great contentment in acknowledging that I will never be a 'top tier' exile. But it's important to keep in mind that 'top tier' is relative. Already I am 'top tier' to very new healers, and healers like Kalypso and Fafnir who I see as mid-level are 'top tier' to me. : )
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Re: Have Fresh Off Boat Exiles Start With A Sunpebble

Post by Illora Mone » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:51 am

At the very least I'd like the tower horns fixed to broadcast yells to tc again. That was highly useful, as long as the newbie knew to yell.
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