Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

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Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Hoggle » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:39 pm

I didn't want to derail all the good stuff going on in that other thread so I started this one.

It's good to hear that maybe CL will get a bit of an extended life if all these things happen with the account portal and the Maz client being able to be played in a browser.

But what about the part where they said "We don't believe the game can or should continue to limp along in its current form for very much longer"?

Clanlord was never designed with this lifespan in mind. Its been nearly 20 years. Many of the people talking about how they wouldn't have any interest in CL2 are the same ones who said they wouldn't play again if Clanlord had a rank reset effecting all players.

I mean, if the fix to Clanlord that ensured a life of many more years and kept the game exactly as it is came at the cost of people starting again as newbies.. would you continue to play?

If the fix to Clanlord that ensured a life of many more years, but the game remained exactly the same and everyone kept their ranks.. would you come back?

When Arindal happened there were loads of new GM's and new players that flooded that world. Many of the players were Clanlord players. Even at the cost of no English speaking NPC's there were all of these players interested in this familiar yet new world.

This is what we could have with a CL2. Familiar, yet new.

I'm not going to go into all the things that CL2 could be or should be (aside from saying Mobile Clanlord seems like it might be a pain for all involved.)

Its currently Sunday, 4:38pm pst. There are 12 exiles in the lands. One of them is a bot to make up for the lack of healers online at any time. After a week of checking in on the informer this is about as high as I've ever seen it.

I love this game, the people who play it, and the people who make it. Think about all the stuff learned from these 20 years of Clanlord and how that might be used to craft an even greater Clanlord.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:01 pm

I'd play if it started exactly the same as it is now. It won't and couldn't. The people that developed CL2 would HAVE to put their mark on it, "fix" it.

I don't know what thinking makes the GMs think CL is done. Maybe they're done with it. Maybe nothing can be done with it.

I play several games from the 80s in virtual boxes and they work just as well as they ever did.

If CL1 went mobile, I wouldn't play. If CL1 went browser I would.

I think you're looking at the wrong times. It peaks around 20 or so unless there's a special event at the right time and word gets around.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Jazz » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:19 pm

I'd be curious to find out how many unique people are actually active. I would bet it's less than 100. Even if I'm clanning with 12 people in the roster it's actually more like 3-4 and their alts. I'm as guilty of alt-clicking as anyone and it's actually become kind of a fun, different style of game play in itself, but it's pretty counter productive to maintaining a community. Still... adapt or die.

I want CL1 to stay CL1 forever... it would just be insanely cool to be playing a game that's lasted even more *decades*... but to put in whatever effort that would take to cater to such a low audience doesn't make much sense.

What would bring people back/start people fresh is new GM driven events, new areas/quests/items, different ways to earn experience, buff healers, BUFF mystics etc. etc. etc. and with Joe Lord™ that wasn't ever going to happen. But if he relinquishes control...

...you may just have your CL1 cake and eat it too. Who knows.
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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Destian » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:52 pm

To make what would be a long post comparatively short, CL2 could keep largely the same combat and character progression system as CL1 (aka progression that happens over years and years) if it could be an MMO experience centered around story arcs that happen over the course of a "season" (much in the way competitive seasons happen in modern shooters).

But it's only going to work if CL2 constantly places story in the limelight, doing things like:

-Keeping an up-to-date story journal on the main website that summarizes story events and progress on a daily basis, including which players participated in them and what transpired or was discovered.

-Having "live visionstones" in game that allow players who've opted in to watch important story events unfolding as other players trigger them, sort of like a news network for plot.

-Being intertwined with social media in such as way that information about in game events and hints as to story events about to unfold is tweeted to followers whenever it's about to happen.

Basically, this would be an MMO where the storyline IS the progression. Matrix Online attempted this years back and failed, mainly because of how challenging it was to hold events across multiple servers.

I see CL2 as a single server game, but aiming to appeal to the niche of players who play games for the story and can't get that kind of experience from other MMOs.

IMO, CL was at its absolute best when the story was unfolding. It was in-game history and you were there to see it: this unrepeatable, unique event, that could very well shape the history of the rest of the game.

No other game has that kind of power.

With modern game development tools, I'm certain a relatively small GM staff could handle running live events and making the world interesting on a daily basis, but that depends upon what the revenue source of the game would be.

I could see CL2 successfully marketing itself as a "specialty MMO", since the idea would be to tout the in-game storyline and GM-controlled characters as the selling point of the game.

The bottom line is that so few (if any) MMOs try to be anything other than what amounts to an ultimately pointless leveling treadmill. CL2's niche would be MMO players who want to experience a living, breathing fantasy world where the events of the storyline aren't just endlessly repeatable schlock like so many themepark MMOs offer.
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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Mac » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 am

Hoggle wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:39 pm
Many of the people talking about how they wouldn't have any interest in CL2 are the same ones who said they wouldn't play again if Clanlord had a rank reset effecting all players.
I think you hit the nail on the head.

Why would changing the lasties system to just a tag and "hunted experience" system destroy the feel of CL? Is purposely slowing down hunting to a near excruciating pace so people can all get tags and lasties really an integral part of CL and it's community? Are all the fights and bitter feelings in regards to lasties really an important thing that cannot be changed?

If the sharing system was changed so that there wasn't an "exp efficiency loss" by bringing weaker or non-useful people really destroy CL's community? Is forcing a hunt group to share X fighter because "they have the most ranks" really a super awesome aspect of CL that must be preserved? Is "you must share lock Y healer because they can't abuse cadding for shares" something that's a great CL tradition that we need to preserve?

If the GMs came out tomorrow and said "we're changing the exp system" would all of these people be saying "if you change the exp system, you're destroying the whole CL experience and I'm going to quit"? I don't think so.

A lot of people talk about subjective things like "community" and "the feel of CL," but what it really seems like is that want to avoid losing their current ranks/progress/social status within the game (which CL2 or a rank reset would take away from them). Counter arguments aren't actually articulating why some changes would be a bad thing beyond the subjective statements and making threats of "if you change it I will quit" which makes is pretty much impossible to actually have a discussion.
Hoggle wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:39 pm
But what about the part where they said "We don't believe the game can or should continue to limp along in its current form for very much longer"?
I haven't seen a lot of the "change nothing" people addressing this.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Mac » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:24 am

Hoggle wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:39 pm
I'm not going to go into all the things that CL2 could be or should be (aside from saying Mobile Clanlord seems like it might be a pain for all involved.)
Frankly, I think people hear "mobile" and instantly throw in a bunch of preexisting ideas and beliefs (like micro transactions, shady purchasing, etc). If people want to make an argument against mobile pricing schemes, the future problems of maintaing a mobile client, or against dumbing down the overall game to make it mobile friendly then I think they could have very valid points (and I'd probably agree with them).

That being said, I see absolutely no reason why the overall gameplay experience of CL couldn't be exactly the same on a mobile platform as it is on PC. CL is literally point movement, macros, and a chat box. There's no reason these things could not be replicated on mobile platforms (even if only the larger tablets i.e. iPads).

It may not be worth the effort and it might not work for other reasons (i.e. latency), but the idea that CL has some unique or special gameplay feature that wouldn't work or couldn't be replicated on a tablet platform is just silly.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Destian » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:52 am

Mac wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 am
Why would changing the lasties system to just a tag and "hunted experience" system destroy the feel of CL? Is purposely slowing down hunting to a near excruciating pace so people can all get tags and lasties really an integral part of CL and it's community? Are all the fights and bitter feelings in regards to lasties really an important thing that cannot be changed?

If the sharing system was changed so that there wasn't an "exp efficiency loss" by bringing weaker or non-useful people really destroy CL's community? Is forcing a hunt group to share X fighter because "they have the most ranks" really a super awesome aspect of CL that must be preserved? Is "you must share lock Y healer because they can't abuse cadding for shares" something that's a great CL tradition that we need to preserve?

If the GMs came out tomorrow and said "we're changing the exp system" would all of these people be saying "if you change the exp system, you're destroying the whole CL experience and I'm going to quit"? I don't think so.

A lot of people talk about subjective things like "community" and "the feel of CL," but what it really seems like is that want to avoid losing their current ranks/progress/social status within the game (which CL2 or a rank reset would take away from them). Counter arguments aren't actually articulating why some changes would be a bad thing beyond the subjective statements and making threats of "if you change it I will quit" which makes is pretty much impossible to actually have a discussion.
Yep. It was the restrictive nature of CL's systems that led it to being unplayable outside of scheduled hunts or double-clicking in the first place.

CL continued on to reach 20 years due to the phenomenal work by dedicated volunteer GMs and a community that worked hard to be as inclusive as possible. This was done DESPITE CL's overly restrictive systems, not because of them, and you can depress yourself by counting the number of new players who found CL and seemed to like it, but eventually gave up when they realized that they were literally YEARS away from even beginning to be able to contribute meaningfully to hunts (and that's as a FIGHTER, forget healers or mystics).

I would personally rather reset and have an actual playerbase to play with than stay at my current level.

I also have to be honest: I see no reason to play CL if there's no overarching storyline that gives it all a purpose. If you want to play a game where you can grind endlessly, there are tons out there that are all around less cumbersome than CL and will scratch that grinding itch.

There are plenty of grindy AF free MMOs or other games out there, but MMOs that give the player a sense of truly being a part of the world and the story are extremely rare.
Last edited by Destian on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by TreeBeard » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:11 pm

Hey all, been reading up on the threads, and it was a bummer. I was thinking about those who are interested in a revamp, CL2, and had a few thoughts.

First, I think anyone who has a previous account should be able to do some kind of sync to the new game. This won't be a 1 to 1 match, but instead a grandfathering system that provides some kind of bonus/gear/status that indicates the pedigree of the old accounts. This would be similar to the taintless, but could be as nice as a free home with stuffed monsters from the original (licensing permitting). Basically let us reward the players for coming to the new game, while also maintaining that there may be a new population joining.

Second, I see no reason why we can't brainstorm some major fixes. Instead of a direct replacement of an original, this would be something new with nods and respect to the original. This would bring in a new crowd of players potentially, and be something familiar for those that may lose an old favorite. Tagging, experience, subclass balance, healer roles, and mystics are clear areas for change.

Third, if we want to keep the spirit of the game in tact, it would need limitless advancement, community based cooperative experience building, and retro graphics. I know there are plenty of other aspects that could be maintained, and perhaps that can be brainstormed here as well as it already is.

Fourth, this is a great idea, even though it is bittersweet. It may not be perfect, and it may never replicate the old experience. However, it may be a fun game for people to see their old friends, and have an experience that allows people to gather, explore, and achieve some small and large goals over time.

I don't know how it will look if it gets rolling, but I think it's a good idea, and worth a shot.
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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Fogtripper » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:31 am

Mac wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 am
A lot of people talk about subjective things like "community" and "the feel of CL," but what it really seems like is that want to avoid losing their current ranks/progress/social status within the game (which CL2 or a rank reset would take away from them).
I get the impression that many the ones who want to retain their ranks are the ones most vocal about rank gap issues.

The overarching goal for me playing CL was experiencing new content in a meaningful way. Not carried like a babysat tourist, nor exploited for a lowbie share's worth. If it was all new content in a CL2, which would be exactly the same as new content in the existing game, I don't see the issue with people starting at the same rank again. But that is me, and I know there are those who do not want to lose their rank gap above others.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Destian » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:01 pm

Fogtripper wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:31 am
Mac wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 am
A lot of people talk about subjective things like "community" and "the feel of CL," but what it really seems like is that want to avoid losing their current ranks/progress/social status within the game (which CL2 or a rank reset would take away from them).
I get the impression that many the ones who want to retain their ranks are the ones most vocal about rank gap issues.

The overarching goal for me playing CL was experiencing new content in a meaningful way. Not carried like a babysat tourist, nor exploited for a lowbie share's worth. If it was all new content in a CL2, which would be exactly the same as new content in the existing game, I don't see the issue with people starting at the same rank again. But that is me, and I know there are those who do not want to lose their rank gap above others.
CL2 is more about taking the basics of what worked in CL while shearing away what didn't. It would likely be too different of a game for a lot of the players that just want the CL server to keep running.

I have no issue with folks wanting to keep the CL server running, but that's ultimately not going to breathe any new life into either the game or the community.

And when the last player to ever be on that server logs out for the last time, all of CL's unique design philosophy is dead and buried.

That's why it's so vital that CL2 is made, even if it's just a spiritual successor.
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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Hoggle » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:11 pm

This whole thing reminds me of some kind of Star Trek episode where they tell the people "your sun will super nova.. you must leave the planet!" and the people go "we have lived here our whole lives.. we shall die here!"

I don't want to force people off this planet.. I just would like it, if we have the collective means, to terraform another(to extend the metaphor) and get ahead of this if we can. Maybe some "Never CL2!" would migrate.. maybe they wouldn't. As much as I sympathize and would hate to not see them again, that really doesn't factor into anything for me.

Before all that, this boils down to seeing if Joe has it in him to take on this work yet again, or if not, the ability to hand the reigns to another who he would entrust with it. If he does that, I wouldn't expect it to be free but it shouldn't be so taxing that it collapses the way Arindal did due to their inability to maintain the license. Who knows what they would have gotten up to given a few more years to get their footing.

How serious is Sektor Glitch in this? I'm guessing its probably hard for him to weigh in on this either way until he speaks to Joe about it.. and maybe thats happening now. Who's to say.

If not Sektor, and if not Joe.. then what? I guess probably the end of this discussion as no one else has expressed interest in it, or the ability to carry it out.

Perhaps it is time to do an official Kickstarter to see if all this "oh we'd donate so much to this.." is even really a thing anymore, or if we need to be brought back to reality with concrete numbers.

Before someone goes on about how there might be 100 people who know what clanlord even is and might donate, remember Kickstarter isn't a platform for raising money from the people who you know would support you.. its about expanding that circle. Kickstarter is both a means of generating money, as it is advertisement. Kickstarter hype has sort of waned in all this time as unfulfilled projects have mounted over the years, but there is still potential.

But yeah, this would all be yet another Joe or "Steward of CL" thing.

Let us hope The Joe comes down to speaketh unto the masses while there is still time and interest. Please Joe, take a lesson from Clanlord.. everyone hates Purgatory.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Fogtripper » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:11 am

Here's to hoping that Joe is neither on fire or is down with the herpies.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by TreeBeard » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:59 pm

I was thinking also, if people wanted we could try to build a Roblox clanlord also. It would be a voxel world, but in principle you could have a lot of elements of the original despite it being a different medium. You can even make groups that when joined offer special rewards, i.e. legacy Clanlord players. I don't expect many people to join it from CL1 tbh, but it is a way to make a game virtually from scratch, and have a never ending expandable world in an MMO format that already provides the servers. it costs 5.95 a month to have builder's club, and it's free to play. The downside is that you lose the retro feel, and you gain a bunch of troll kids as a playerbase. It could still be fun as a puddleby world
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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Borzon » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:22 am

An Arindal player remade the Arindal town (Arilon) in Roblox back in the day. It is certainly doable but I don't think it will capture CL's spirit at all.

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Re: Clanlord 1 and Clanlord 2.

Post by Destian » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:24 am

Hoggle wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:11 pm
Let us hope The Joe comes down to speaketh unto the masses while there is still time and interest. Please Joe, take a lesson from Clanlord.. everyone hates Purgatory.
It's not exactly clear to me who has been working on CL for all this time, other than Yapmeister Flash and Party Hearty Slarty.

I'm kind of inclined to believe, however, that Joe might just want to wash his hands of CL at this point, not unlike how Hideo Kojima is so damn done with the Metal Gear franchise but keeps getting dragged back to it.
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