v1042 discussion

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Jazz
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Jazz » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:01 am

Jazz wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:08 am
I may be out of date as I haven't tried it in awhile, but it used to be prohibitively ridiculous trying to virtualize MacOS and run it in say VirtualBox etc.
Having said that...

I'm sad to read the Windows Client is deprecated because honestly it's easy to run Windows or Linux in a virtual environment. I played CL on Ubuntu with Wine and the Windows Client for quite awhile and it was a very nice experience and something any lay person could accomplish.

HTML5 may be cool (think of how many MMOs are browser only), but I wonder how hard things like click-toggles would be and just general browser instability/weirdness compared to a native app. I doubt I'd play on my iPhone/iPad, but that's probably just me. I like the "sit down, drink coffee (or BEER)" and just play on the desktop experience. Plus CL is very... mousy... might be weird translating right-click etc. to gestures or whatever... barf.

Making a "final" client build (v1050 sounds about right) and just seeing how long until things implode would a) alleviate the need to volunteer time to update every 3 weeks and b) keep the small, but dedicated rangers... er... players... happy for probably a lot longer than anyone thinks. I mean, really, why shut it down when it's been chugging along just fine for so long. So there won't be new areas (Quirks!?!), tell blades, Trevor Mort skillz etc. etc. It's still a fun game.

I, personally, don't think the effort is worth it trying to get a new playbase etc. It's much more a "how long can we keep this game alive" in whatever form... if only for future online bragging rights. Hey did you hear about that weird Mac MMO that's been online since the late 90s? How cool.

Having digested everything I've read so far it seems that it will ALL just boil down to:

Will AWOL Joe let it all go and give it (sell it dirt cheap) to someone who cares and can keep it going. It's all on Joe it sounds like. Go get'em ANN! You were always my favorite back in the day because of your responsiveness... now I know it's because you were paid. Haha. ;-)

PS - I'm just a nobody middle aged script kitty web hack, but please do let me know if there is any way I can help out.
Bang a rang!

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Chum
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Chum » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:10 am

Jazz wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:01 am
Go get'em ANN! You were always my favorite back in the day because of your responsiveness...
aa Pouts.

Chum was always responsive. Just... nobody liked the responses they got.

:wink:


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I will drink no martini before it is time. What time is it?

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Jazz
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Jazz » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:08 am

Chum wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:10 am
"No. Go away!"
If it makes you feel any better, I've gone fishing with you MANY times on the west docks... you just didn't seem... all that present. ;-)

ALSO... here's a thought...

Each "account" has an email address associated with it I assume. Whether it's still valid or not doesn't matter. Can you export all those email addresses and send out a quick mass email to the effect:

Subject: Clan Lord is being SHUT DOWN (maybe).

Message: Hello fellow exile. Long time, no hear... in many cases. We wanted to let you know that, for a variety of reasons, Clan Lord is in immediate danger of being turned off forever. BUT... it's possible that you or someone you know might want to make that a different story. Are you rich? Bored, but talented? Have always loved your little 8-bit alter egos even if you don't play any more? Chime in on the Sentinel thread and help SAVE Clan Lord.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10517

Sincerely,
Clan Lord GMs

You never know... someone might save CL for you/us/the universe. I wouldn't dare call this "marketing", but simply an easy, quick way to see who still cares out there.
Bang a rang!

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Skirwan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:30 am

Jazz wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:01 am
HTML5 may be cool
For what it's worth -- I'm reasonably confident you could do a CL web app.

The pile of code that became the permanently-beta HTML5 Stylunk started as 'Skirwan trying to figure out the rendering side of a web CL client'. And I only started messing with that because I'd just built a lightweight long-polling HTTP server for a really stupid reason at work, and experimentally-ish convinced myself that tunnelling CL's UDP protocol over HTTP was workable [1].

These days the HTML5 tech is in an even better place -- WebSockets, local storage, PointerLock... (just Googled for a few minutes... I would've killed for 'image-rendering: pixelated' five years ago!).

I'm not saying it's 'easy' in the normal English sense of the word, rather that it's 'easy' in the developer-speak sense of 'I can see how to do so and see no fundamental technological roadblocks'. Do we still call that 'Soon!' here?

You could even do it without directly changing the server at all -- have a web proxy/gateway, ideally running on the same box as the client.

That should not be interpreted as my volunteering to do it. But: I think either a web or iOS client would be a necessary but by no means sufficient [2] component of any serious plan to revitalize Clan Lord. And based on having spent many idle hours trying to figure out how to crack the 'CL on an iPad UX' nut, my gut is 'web'.

Obligatory disclaimer: This is off-the-cuff, driven by five-years-out-of-date info, and based only on thinking about it overnight since Ayella texted me a link to the v1042 news and a frowny-face.

--

[1] To be clear -- I convinced myself that CL-over-HTTP is workable... in 2012 (2012-ish, it doesn't matter enough for me to dig up notes and determine precise dates).

Nothing I say should be construed as saying 'CL should have been this way from the start', because the fact that they got it working at all with modems connecting to the 90s internet is really damned impressive. I was asked to keep the whole 'Skirwan back-engineered the protocol and built a hacky client' thing on the down-low, so I don't think I ever really publicy stated my respect and appreciation for the coder or coders of the core game. The game engine, protocol... the brilliantly hacky palette shenanigans to make shirt colors work... it's great stuff, it's brilliant, and it's incredible.

And in the 90s?! "Tony Stark was able to build this... in a cave! With a box of scraps!"

[2] Personally, I think the bulk of the tangible value of CL (i.e. not 'the community!', stuff you could buy or sell) is the game content -- area designs, scripts, images. At this point, in 2017... the engine, protocol, and game client are mainly valuable because they're the only ways to run the content. Based on that, I think most serious plans for 'saving' CL would require actually making use of all that content, which I suspect would require some form of server reset. Nobody's interested anymore, right?
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

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Chum
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Chum » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:37 am

Skirwan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:30 am
I'm not saying it's 'easy' in the normal English sense of the word, rather that it's 'easy' in the developer-speak sense of 'I can see how to do so and see no fundamental technological roadblocks'. Do we still call that 'Soon!' here?
If you look up "Soon!" in the CL dictionary, there is actually a screenshot of this very quote.

How that entry was made, decades ago, is a mystery to this apprentice-mystic...
I will drink no martini before it is time. What time is it?

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Ayella » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:57 am

Skirwan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:30 am
Obligatory disclaimer: This is off-the-cuff, driven by five-years-out-of-date info, and based only on thinking about it overnight since Ayella texted me a link to the v1042 news and a frowny-face.
I’m like Beetlejuice so I appear when you say my name. Chiming in to say “me too.” I imagined CL always being there, and would love to support a way to make that happen.
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She'd make poor men ponder: "F'nord."

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Tabatha » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:02 am

Aww man. I haven't played in a while, once it became obvious there wouldn't be any more updates and I ran out of interest/stuff to do. But I'll always love CL. Such a unique game, so many great memories. I hope it can be preserved in some way, but if not 20 years is still a great run. Thanks to all who made it possible. :)
NNK!

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Jazz
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Jazz » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:13 am

Skirwan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:30 am
'Skirwan back-engineered the protocol and built a hacky client' thing
Was it you or Maz that built the integrated, single-window CL (I think that was right around when GL lighting was being introduced).

Or.. wait... are you Maz?! LOL.

Anyways... thanks for your contributions over the years Skirwan! I still use Stylunk sometimes (and then usually put my tan shirt and pants back on, realizing I'm so fashionably challenged).
Bang a rang!

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by thesquib » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:24 am

Skirwan, that's exactly what I've done already - proxy, etc. Read my post :D
I was working on something similar for work, and so I just followed that path for a while. Needs an overhaul to do it properly. Also I'm not so keen on web development, but that's just today's world. Though you could write once and emscripten it with some custom networking code for a browser version.

https://imgur.com/a/734L6

Also I agree wholeheartedly - the area designs, artwork, sounds are all still good. Preserving this somehow would be amazing. Game Engines are great these days, area design tools are good, scripting languages easy (lua, etc).
Skirwan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:30 am
Jazz wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:01 am
HTML5 may be cool
For what it's worth -- I'm reasonably confident you could do a CL web app.

The pile of code that became the permanently-beta HTML5 Stylunk started as 'Skirwan trying to figure out the rendering side of a web CL client'. And I only started messing with that because I'd just built a lightweight long-polling HTTP server for a really stupid reason at work, and experimentally-ish convinced myself that tunnelling CL's UDP protocol over HTTP was workable [1].

These days the HTML5 tech is in an even better place -- WebSockets, local storage, PointerLock... (just Googled for a few minutes... I would've killed for 'image-rendering: pixelated' five years ago!).

I'm not saying it's 'easy' in the normal English sense of the word, rather that it's 'easy' in the developer-speak sense of 'I can see how to do so and see no fundamental technological roadblocks'. Do we still call that 'Soon!' here?

You could even do it without directly changing the server at all -- have a web proxy/gateway, ideally running on the same box as the client.

That should not be interpreted as my volunteering to do it. But: I think either a web or iOS client would be a necessary but by no means sufficient [2] component of any serious plan to revitalize Clan Lord. And based on having spent many idle hours trying to figure out how to crack the 'CL on an iPad UX' nut, my gut is 'web'.

Obligatory disclaimer: This is off-the-cuff, driven by five-years-out-of-date info, and based only on thinking about it overnight since Ayella texted me a link to the v1042 news and a frowny-face.

--

[1] To be clear -- I convinced myself that CL-over-HTTP is workable... in 2012 (2012-ish, it doesn't matter enough for me to dig up notes and determine precise dates).

Nothing I say should be construed as saying 'CL should have been this way from the start', because the fact that they got it working at all with modems connecting to the 90s internet is really damned impressive. I was asked to keep the whole 'Skirwan back-engineered the protocol and built a hacky client' thing on the down-low, so I don't think I ever really publicy stated my respect and appreciation for the coder or coders of the core game. The game engine, protocol... the brilliantly hacky palette shenanigans to make shirt colors work... it's great stuff, it's brilliant, and it's incredible.

And in the 90s?! "Tony Stark was able to build this... in a cave! With a box of scraps!"

[2] Personally, I think the bulk of the tangible value of CL (i.e. not 'the community!', stuff you could buy or sell) is the game content -- area designs, scripts, images. At this point, in 2017... the engine, protocol, and game client are mainly valuable because they're the only ways to run the content. Based on that, I think most serious plans for 'saving' CL would require actually making use of all that content, which I suspect would require some form of server reset. Nobody's interested anymore, right?
Last edited by thesquib on Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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thesquib
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by thesquib » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:29 am

Jazz, i tried this at the ranktracker to let people know their data was preserved, but peoples old geocities-age emails are generally gone it seems.
Jazz wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:08 am
Chum wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:10 am
"No. Go away!"
If it makes you feel any better, I've gone fishing with you MANY times on the west docks... you just didn't seem... all that present. ;-)

ALSO... here's a thought...

Each "account" has an email address associated with it I assume. Whether it's still valid or not doesn't matter. Can you export all those email addresses and send out a quick mass email to the effect:

Subject: Clan Lord is being SHUT DOWN (maybe).

Message: Hello fellow exile. Long time, no hear... in many cases. We wanted to let you know that, for a variety of reasons, Clan Lord is in immediate danger of being turned off forever. BUT... it's possible that you or someone you know might want to make that a different story. Are you rich? Bored, but talented? Have always loved your little 8-bit alter egos even if you don't play any more? Chime in on the Sentinel thread and help SAVE Clan Lord.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10517

Sincerely,
Clan Lord GMs

You never know... someone might save CL for you/us/the universe. I wouldn't dare call this "marketing", but simply an easy, quick way to see who still cares out there.
HWC Ruuk

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by thesquib » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:32 am

If we are talking of preserving - something benign to celebrate all the exiles past would be cool. I sort of tried that on the rank tracker:
https://ranktracker.squib.co.nz/allexiles
HWC Ruuk

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Jazz
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Jazz » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:08 pm

thesquib wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:24 am
https://imgur.com/a/734L6
This is cool Ruuk. How far along were you? Could you move, talk... do anything?

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by thesquib » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:14 pm

Yup can move. Needs work on the UI and clicking, chatting, etc. The canvas game display bit was my focus at the time
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Shakyamuni » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:16 pm

thesquib wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:32 am
If we are talking of preserving - something benign to celebrate all the exiles past would be cool. I sort of tried that on the rank tracker:
https://ranktracker.squib.co.nz/allexiles
This would be great if it could use the ranks from the server. I have only messages to keep track now
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Skirwan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:36 pm

Jazz wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:13 am
Skirwan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:30 am
'Skirwan back-engineered the protocol and built a hacky client' thing
Was it you or Maz that built the integrated, single-window CL
I remember what you're talking about, and that wasn't mine (and I'm not Maz). Was it Maz who did the never-released spiffy client with the lighting effects? Those screenshots were kind of an inspiration for me when I played with my own client ideas later on though.

The nostalgia's hitting hard -- just dug up some old screenshots:

Image
Image
Image
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

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