v1042 discussion

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Naferu
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Naferu » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:06 pm

In response to Geo, I present option B...

Do the revemp, keep the original server(on the revamped builds).
Lock the OG server, keep it mostly as is with area updates.
Allow OG server accounts to have chars access outside servers.
Have more play/experimentation with outside server development.
Allow those who wish to participate, join.
Mai-a-hiiii mai-a-haaa mai-a-hooo mai-a-haaa'aaaa!!!

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Leinis » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:42 pm

Kerrah wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:50 pm
Mantuans overrunning TC!).
Pengy's done that a number of times now in the past year. So much actually that Kalian has Mantuan befriend now...
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by reckinyards » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:59 pm

what if cl was ported to steam
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Krane » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:23 am

Thanks a lot for the offer Sek'tor Glich
This is a very generous offer

Could your plan fit in a sequence where first we ensure CL as is continues
Secondly build in parallel the CL 2 that you described?

I'll be happy to help

Silky
Sek'tor Glich wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:00 am
Hi Guys,

I want to put an offer on the table to preserve this very important piece of history for me. Before the offer, I want to first explain why:

I believe i was 13 or 14 when I first started playing Clanlord. I was introduced to clanlord back in the hotline days from a Brazilian friend who I played Warcraft 2 with. He talked about this clanlord thing, and I logged in and was amazed that I could move around with more than 8 players, and without having to connect tcp/ip directly to them. At that time, there weren't even races -- we were all just hooded pinkies. Joe was rolling out updates to the game so fast, that the game experience was vastly changing every two weeks, with no fail.

I spent many years playing as "Sector Glitch" (Joe made me change the name eventually), although few would probably remember me from back then. As time rolled on, I would log in every few years to spend ranks, and see if I could make it into the next circle. I couldn't follow all of the changes with new classes/abilities added, so I didn't even try. Nowadays, the game has grown so much that it's an impossible onboarding experience for a new player to come into the fold and enjoy all the things we took for granted, having seen it change from its inception.

Offer

After a couple decades, I've done very well for myself having built software for government organizations (NSA, CIA), having built companies from the ground up (pm me or hit me up in discord for the websites, as I don't want to have google index their names with this post), and basically find myself in a half retired state. But, Clanlord has always held a very special place in my heart and I want to see it either be preserved long-term, or recreated so people can experience the same wonder that I felt as a teen (and maybe even have my children feel once they get old enough to play).

So I want to do this: I want to rebuild the entire Clanlord game from the ground up using the graphical/audio assets. I want to do it as a mobile-first experience, using a technology that will allow me to basically put it as a web client also. I feel like Clanlord would have taken mobile by storm, if it had been there when mobile games were new.

That being said, I want it to be a real business (with marketing towards getting new users), and therefore there are a bunch of changes I'd make that purists might be off-put by. While I understand where they're coming from, the game (which has become a glorified chatroom), should become a game again.

Here are the major changes I'd make to what Clanlord is now:

  • Mobile-first. The primary client will be a native app (using something like react native). There will be a web browser client, but it will be secondary.
  • Get rid of the frame lag -- it made sense when we were connecting with 33.6 modems, and before Joe got a much fast server (i remember when he got the servers put on a gaming network calling ten-something, or something like that). There's just no reason to have it anymore, and it will be a much smoother gaming experience.
  • Reduce a lot of friction points in the game. For instance, I want a status screen that I can click which shows me how much atkus, troilus, etc. I have.
  • Reimagine puddleby. There's too much "stuff" right now (when was the last time you guys had a court case?). Keep the good and useful parts, and simplify the rest.
  • Multi-server. When Joe first started the game, he mentioned he always wanted to keep it as one server so that the userbase wasn't fragmented. I totally get that, but that isn't a viable model if we want more than 200 people playing the game. There will be a way to go between servers, and possibly an in-app purchase that lets you purchase a private server for you to bring your friends on.
  • In app-purchases, but never ever becoming the "pay to win" model. In my mind, that means mostly having the purchases as being cosmetic, or perhaps purchasing a personal house in puddleby, etc.
  • Friendly towards going in and out of the game quickly (since it's mobile first) -- this means that the library effect exists no matter where you log out no matter when you log out. This is important for allowing people to log in quickly, do a couple things and log out (a key to mobile apps).
There are some more things, but here is my vision for this project:
  • We won't need any external funding -- I'll fund the whole thing.
  • About a 7-9 month development period for an app store release. Relying on you guys as playtesters until then using TestFlight, which allows you to download the test clients and play.
  • Using the community to help develop the playability of this new game. We could do it through this forum, or I prefer something like Reddit (easier to see ideas that are good when people are upvoting them). We want to be "retro", while still being fun for a teenager to log on and play. Appealing to disparate audiences is difficult, but I think the key to that is keeping the core game mechanics of Clanlord (moving to attack, moving to heal, etc.), and building on those.
If we do this, I can get tens of thousands of mobile installs very easily -- I do that part for a living right now. But I want to have a compelling game deeply steeped in lore, and that's what I think the IP of Clanlord can really provide. We can have a community of newer people enjoy the thing we've been secretly (very secretly) enjoying for many years.

I understand that everything depends on Joe's approval, but that being said, what do you guys think?

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Sek'tor Glich » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:20 am

Thanks a lot for the offer Sek'tor Glich
This is a very generous offer

Could your plan fit in a sequence where first we ensure CL as is continues
Secondly build in parallel the CL 2 that you described?

I'll be happy to help

Silky
Well, let's fix one problem we're facing -- something I can fix very quickly as I have a lot of experience with OSCommerce and legacy systems. If the GM's want to give me access to the account portal, I'll fix it and take that problem off the table.

From there, I can't promise supporting a legacy system without looking at the complexity of the underlying code. I can say that if I build a "CL2", that we could have a private server where the current GM's can faithfully recreate the experience of Clanlord. If shoehorning a websocket-based networking layer onto the current server is possible, then I might be able to just reproduce the current server in a web client.

It all depends on what the guts of the server looks like. I've written/updated legacy systems in Perl, Java, C, and VC++, but I don't know what Clanlord is written in and (more importantly) how it's written. If someone more knowledgable wants to clue me in on what the current server setup is, where it's hosted, what their deployment strategy is, then I can provide an estimate as to what I think. It would also just really help to physically see the code.

Let's get the account portal fixed, and then continue the conversation from there.

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Sonny_Bill » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:51 am

Sek'tor Glich wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:20 am
From there, I can't promise supporting a legacy system without looking at the complexity of the underlying code. I can say that if I build a "CL2", that we could have a private server where the current GM's can faithfully recreate the experience of Clanlord. If shoehorning a websocket-based networking layer onto the current server is possible, then I might be able to just reproduce the current server in a web client.

It all depends on what the guts of the server looks like. I've written/updated legacy systems in Perl, Java, C, and VC++, but I don't know what Clanlord is written in and (more importantly) how it's written. If someone more knowledgable wants to clue me in on what the current server setup is, where it's hosted, what their deployment strategy is, then I can provide an estimate as to what I think. It would also just really help to physically see the code.
One option could be to reverse-engineer the TCP handshake and make your own server app. The current client can connect to any server you like, like... ANYTHING so long as it's the same protocol.

What if this happened:
1. You make a server that hosts a new world to prove you've got the skills (nobody can stop you from doing this)
2. Mods create a tool that allows characters to be moved from the old database to a new one that you're hosting (e.g. you talk to an NPC in the current game and if you say 'YES' then your data gets transferred over to the new database... I say this for privacy reasons, I don't think it's cool just copying the old database over to a new party without permission)
3. People start playing in the new server during a transition period of like 6-12 months, using a client that you've created (while the current CL client rots... eventually it gets to the point where everybody's playing on the new server and the old server's just there for legacy purposes...)
4. Over time we have a new server running (using modern, more sustainable coding practices) and a new client that's designed for modern devices (e.g. an HTML client that runs on all mobile devices using touch gestures AND also runs fullscreen on all desktops using either touch gestures or mouse clicks)... all is good.

How can the current mods help?
1. Release some documentation on the current system! Let us know how the TCP handshake works and volunteer any other information that devs need (so long as it doesn't breach any IP or privacy)
2. Encourage Joe to come out of hiding an have an official word about this... it's his baby and IMO there's very little use talking about anything until we know what he thinks

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by DragonHawk » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:55 am

Wow, haven't logged in here in a *while*, but I want to give my 2 cents.

The way it seems to me, this entirely hinges on whether or not Joe wants to release or relicense the game or not, and how that might look if so. All other discussion is moot until he makes that decision. It's not so much a question of *whether* we could keep it going if he were to do so, there is quite likely the requisite skills and labour available to start maintenance of the client to keep it running for the forseeable future. Developing our own server/client by reverse engineering it may technically be possible but would (I assume) be a licensing breach and therefore exist solely at the whim of DT. So, we have to hear from Joe before any plan of action is made.

I don't feel that any changes or additions to the game as it stands are going to be able to turn it into a modern game that brings in basically any significant amount of new players. I don't think this is necessarily a good or bad thing, I just don't think that it is feasible. I think that if it transpires the community can take over, then the current priority should be to start maintenance of the game to keep it running, and then start adding new content in the same framework as has previously been used. This would keep the game alive and fun to play for the people that like to do so. If we had significant new content/story development, we may well bring back some older players that are inactive.

CL is a very special game, and I would be extremely sad to see it disappear, it was a very large part of my life for a very long time. I've met people here that I am glad to be able to call my friend to this day. If it does turn out that the game's code or assets are released for use by the community in some shape, this is a project that I would like to work on.
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Talin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:09 pm

I support CL as it is, and hope it will continue to exist. Due to cultural differences I will not offer my help here, except that I am more than willing to pay again for the game on a monthly basis. I started to play CL out of exactly one reason: Joe seemed to have a sort of integrity, that was, and still is, rare in the globalized economy. The game as it is reflects that, with all its shortcomings. Someone waving with glass beads, err I mean money, because he smells a good deal, and offering to build a reservation where we can dream of the glorious past, is not my thing. Should the rights move away from Joe to any other entity but current GMs I trust, I will empty my chars of any items, reset, and delete them. I know there are backups, such are the risks when investing too much heart into bits and bytes ;) This just a FYI, I am very well aware that is more a symbolic act. Sentinel style I am sure many will find fault with this announcement. I could not care less, as usual. ;)

Like others I can absolutely understand that ex-players are hoping that CL2 will revive what they liked in CL, without repeating the flaws that made them leave. Not sure why they believe they need the rights to CL to create a worthwhile game that does that, though. Especially those who have the SACWAG thing down pat. Create quality over quantity, EZ. Not found on reddit though, LOL.

Not all good things must end, before death shall part us. :) So I hope we will have many amazing hunts in the near, and distant future!

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Eirian » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:57 pm

So... I haven't played in awhile, though life is reaching a stage where I might be able to again, and thus even I'm more sorry to se this thread. But, I understand the issues facing the GMs.

I'm still thinking about what I want to add to the ideas here, but I did get hold of Joe and let him know. He hopes to respond in the next few days. I'll poke at him if he doesn't. -- Ann may have been in touch with him by now too, but idk.

Hope you all have been well. <3
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Yappy » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:14 am

Just wanted to say thanks for the conversation. Some good ideas surfacing here!

Still waiting to hear from Joe.

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Jazz » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:40 am

Talin wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:09 pm
Should the rights move away from Joe to any other entity but current GMs I trust, I will empty my chars of any items, reset, and delete them.
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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Yappy » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:21 am

Update: So, the good news is that we’ve heard from Joe. He’ll be making an announcement soon (or in Delta Tao-ese, “soon”). We’ve also in talks with some skilled people who are willing to undertake the account portal project. We’ll provide more information as news develops.

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Cirnahl_Lovsya » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:21 am

I'd be happy to go back to paying monthly/yearly if it helps to keep servers maintained and whatnot.

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Fogtripper » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:48 am

Talin wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:09 pm
Like others I can absolutely understand that ex-players are hoping that CL2 will revive what they liked in CL, without repeating the flaws that made them leave. Not sure why they believe they need the rights to CL to create a worthwhile game that does that, though. Especially those who have the SACWAG thing down pat. Create quality over quantity, EZ. Not found on reddit though, LOL.
I am perfectly fine with the existing GMs having the rights to the game if it became CL2.0. Certain things led it down to the path to where it is today however, and those things would have to be addressed.

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Re: v1042 discussion

Post by Shakyamuni » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:49 am

Yappy wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:21 am
Update: So, the good news is that we’ve heard from Joe. He’ll be making an announcement soon (or in Delta Tao-ese, “soon”). We’ve also in talks with some skilled people who are willing to undertake the account portal project. We’ll provide more information as news develops.
This makes me feel much better
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