Clan Lord Kickstarter

Polls, discussion and commentary on suggested issues.

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Would you contribute to a massive CL update financially?

Yes.
54
86%
No. But I support the effort.
2
3%
No. Bad idea!
7
11%
 
Total votes: 63

Sonny_Bill
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Sonny_Bill » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:47 am

Would it be CL2 or just a logical successor to CL?

I guess the graphics could come under the 'engine' category. Would we build a whole new engine or find an existing one that accepts 2D vector graphics and has the network code, sound code, cross-platform compatibility...etc.

Destian brings up a point... '[t]here would also need to be some type of catchup mechanism or it'll wind up exactly the same as CL1'.

That's a really tough one, but I think it's possible. I would recommend doing something that:
- Stops library sitters and encourages active participation.
- Allows n00bs to participate actively.

My suggested solution (which would blow up the current CL mechanics) would be to remove atkus completely and not limit exp... just make obtaining ranks more difficult as time goes by (i.e. require more exp). I'd also do away with slaughter. This would mean that low level players could go to high-level areas on hunts, tag (because they could hit things... they just wouldn't do any noticeable amount of damage) and then get a boot load of exp from it that would allow them to catch up. It would also allow healers/mystics to tag high-level creatures for exp as a "thank you" bonus for playing/socialising with people. I'd probably give healers/mystics exp for their tasks as well...

For example if you have less than 300 ranks, you need 100 exp per rank. Rats give one exp each. For circle 8 you need 1000,000 exp per rank (so you COULD get there by killing rats, but good luck to you if you choose to do so). Say sky bisons give 500 exp each, you'd potentially get a rank for every sky bison you tag as a n00b until you have enough ranks to be able to participate more actively. This way you could hunt around with higher ranked people (in the places where they hunt) and get awesome exp for it. When they're not on, you could solo a lot of other areas (or do them with other lower ranked players) because you'd still get more exp than you would around town (rather than slaughters everywhere), and the exploration would be fun.

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xepel
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by xepel » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:22 pm

Sonny_Bill wrote:I guess the graphics could come under the 'engine' category. Would we build a whole new engine or find an existing one that accepts 2D vector graphics and has the network code, sound code, cross-platform compatibility...etc.
Just build it in Unity, like everything else! ;)
Sonny_Bill wrote:My suggested solution (which would blow up the current CL mechanics) would be to remove atkus completely and not limit exp... just make obtaining ranks more difficult as time goes by (i.e. require more exp). I'd also do away with slaughter. This would mean that low level players could go to high-level areas on hunts, tag (because they could hit things... they just wouldn't do any noticeable amount of damage) and then get a boot load of exp from it that would allow them to catch up.
I think this is a very interesting idea with a lot of promise. A game without Atkus would be a completely different game indeed, as right now Atkus is the limiter to basically everything fighter-related (and all things are fighter-related!). Would that mean detha would also be invalidated? Would everyone just have to be a health tank? (Now this is feeling less-good, heh...)
Sonny_Bill wrote:It would also allow healers/mystics to tag high-level creatures for exp as a "thank you" bonus for playing/socialising with people. I'd probably give healers/mystics exp for their tasks as well...
The need for healers/mystics to tag things (at least before their slaughter goes through the roof) is an artifact of CL's terrible experience payout design. I would make sure that healers/mystics get experience in CL2 for doing healery/mysticy things. Making them tag for experience wouldn't make any sense, and if we're doing everything over again, I'd make sure they wouldn't have to.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Icy » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:42 pm

xepel wrote:The need for healers/mystics to tag things (at least before their slaughter goes through the roof) is an artifact of CL's terrible experience payout design. I would make sure that healers/mystics get experience in CL2 for doing healery/mysticy things. Making them tag for experience wouldn't make any sense, and if we're doing everything over again, I'd make sure they wouldn't have to.
I'd like to go AFK while aura healing AND get experience for it! Great idea Xepel!
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Zelkhorn » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:51 pm

Icy wrote:
xepel wrote:The need for healers/mystics to tag things (at least before their slaughter goes through the roof) is an artifact of CL's terrible experience payout design. I would make sure that healers/mystics get experience in CL2 for doing healery/mysticy things. Making them tag for experience wouldn't make any sense, and if we're doing everything over again, I'd make sure they wouldn't have to.
I'd like to go AFK while aura healing AND get experience for it! Great idea Xepel!
You can already do this, actually. Not exactly an uncommon occurrence ;)

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by noivad » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:19 am

With graphics and frameworks Unity is the current leader with a very strong comunity of active developers.

As far as a catch-up mechanism, I would think grandfathering in the ubers would be a good way to go but also reduce the amount a newbie would have to clan to catch up by simply scaling down the rank amounts. That way a person could catch up within a year or less. I woludn’t do away with atkus, but instead increase the chance of luck hits, and modify some of the other combat mechanics (defense [detha+balthus] would also abate luck hit damage by reducing it by a multiple of the percentage shy of almost certain hit. So enough luck hits from a swarm of 1st circlers could take down a 8th circle creature, but it would just take a long time.

Also, to encourage play, I would adopt the WoW mechanic where a person in the library gain a 2x multiplier to exp each hour offline to equal a certain number of kills. Also, I would do away with slaughter just as Sonny mentions: sure you cold simply hunt myrms and gain ranks, but having to kill 20000 would discourage this. But also still allow upper levels to get something out of helping lower levels.

I would also implement my idea of a rank sharing mechanic so people who join in 2 years could loaned ranks from a fighter reduced. I know the idea didn’t go over well, but it looked like the objections were more questions as to how it would be written. The basic idea is that is would self-balance by default and a rank Transfer could be broken by falls and maintained by mystics.

Oh yeah, I would make mystics viable in combat too by granting them buff powers not solely one wand boost either: they would radiate boosting energies by their mere proximity (& also gain exp). The IC idea being that while they are around, they can coordinate an attack, and boost morale with thier keen insight. They could also debuff, stun, things somewhat like Blood mages. Basically any mechanic that encourages them to move within combat rather than boost and hide. At upper levels, really powerful mystics could freeze/slow time for all enemies and allow a retreat while all creatures on snell are slowed to anywhere from 1/2 to 1/20 their regular speed (5 mystics working together couldpotentially slow time to 1/100).

Skinning would stack. Ranged weapon would be viable. More creatures would drop components and other goodies appropriate to what they might logically carry. Etc. the pack limit would be lifted with additonal packs and could actually be expanded by training. There would be 2 tracks for exp ranks: combat related & non-combat related so RPerS can get buff & min-maxers could develop their character. Basically a lot ofthe ideas myself & others thought were cool would be on the list of things to roll out withina year after release. (Leadership chalkboard abilities, flagging creatures to focus on) etc. with an engine like unity a lot grunt work could be lifted. Hell, with unity players could design areas for no-exp tests & other players could vote on them to be included in the exp earning game.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Elli » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:00 am

Has anyone brought up the thought of an entirely new creation that has ClanLord's soul?

Ideally, I would want CL2. But it seems like that idea, despite how many people are clamoring for it, is never going to happen without DT approval, and there's no sign that DT will ever approve. This thread is already several years old, and many more like it are AGES old.

If going off in an entirely new direction is what it takes to see all of these people, who love the community, who have great ideas and a cornucopia of talents, working on something together, then I'm fine with that. It wouldn't be ClanLord, exactly, but it would probably be amazing nonetheless.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Daimoth » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:27 am

I never made this thread with the intention of a second clan lord game. For the record. I love this one and want to help this one flourish.

If anyone tries and is successful in creating another one you'd just be splitting this community between both. That sounds very counterproductive to me, for everyone. I think some people are forgetting one of the key reasons why arindal was discontinued.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by noivad » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:34 pm

Actually, the idea would be to migrate players to a newer front & backend that could run on 10.6 & up to leverage more modern video cards. Kind of like when DT dropped support for Motorola 68K series for PPC. If you have a non-intel mac, we could probably get old machines for the few that didn’t have PPC machines like DT did.

Part of the spirit of CL is the inclusiveness of the community, and leaving behind old players & splitting the community is not part of the CL vision. So, rather than start a separate world, we could have another major event like the ripture wars conclude CL and trabsition to CL 2. The entire idea is very broad & suffice it to say, the final battles in CL 1 would be concluded on the CL2 app, & would look like CL. But as we step through a new portal it would be akin to the metamorphosis when Dorthy landed in Oz, and like exiles exiting the last battle. They would be in a familair place but things would be slightly different. Who knows maybe they step into TC & find it paved with a lovely fountain & fire pit? (actually there would be several IC possibilities as to how this happened & it would be up to players to solve the mystery of what happened on this new plane…? Is it a new plane? Etc.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Lorikeet » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:07 pm

noivad wrote:Actually, the idea would be to migrate players to a newer front & backend that could run on 10.6 & up to leverage more modern video cards. Kind of like when DT dropped support for Motorola 68K series for PPC. If you have a non-intel mac, we could probably get old machines for the few that didn’t have PPC machines like DT did.

Part of the spirit of CL is the inclusiveness of the community, and leaving behind old players & splitting the community is not part of the CL vision. So, rather than start a separate world, we could have another major event like the ripture wars conclude CL and trabsition to CL 2. The entire idea is very broad & suffice it to say, the final battles in CL 1 would be concluded on the CL2 app, & would look like CL. But as we step through a new portal it would be akin to the metamorphosis when Dorthy landed in Oz, and like exiles exiting the last battle. They would be in a familair place but things would be slightly different. Who knows maybe they step into TC & find it paved with a lovely fountain & fire pit? (actually there would be several IC possibilities as to how this happened & it would be up to players to solve the mystery of what happened on this new plane…? Is it a new plane? Etc.
The point is, if we have a reboot, some of us won't come along. I think that was the point that Daimoth was making.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:39 pm

Lorikeet wrote: The point is, if we have a reboot, some of us won't come along. I think that was the point that Daimoth was making.
Yep. Not only would you lose veteran regulars, but a bunch of people that come back every now and then would also be lost.

CL2 would be a fail because it would not incorporate what made CL1 a success. It would be its own new thing and not be better than the alternatives, so you'd lose part of the community and have no draw to make a new one.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by noivad » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:34 am

Lorikeet wrote:
noivad wrote:Actually, the idea would be to migrate players to a newer front & backend that could run on 10.6 & up to leverage more modern video cards. Kind of like when DT dropped support for Motorola 68K series for PPC. If you have a non-intel mac, we could probably get old machines for the few that didn’t have PPC machines like DT did.

Part of the spirit of CL is the inclusiveness of the community, and leaving behind old players & splitting the community is not part of the CL vision. So, rather than start a separate world, we could have another major event like the ripture wars conclude CL and trabsition to CL 2. The entire idea is very broad & suffice it to say, the final battles in CL 1 would be concluded on the CL2 app, & would look like CL. But as we step through a new portal it would be akin to the metamorphosis when Dorthy landed in Oz, and like exiles exiting the last battle. They would be in a familair place but things would be slightly different. Who knows maybe they step into TC & find it paved with a lovely fountain & fire pit? (actually there would be several IC possibilities as to how this happened & it would be up to players to solve the mystery of what happened on this new plane…? Is it a new plane? Etc.
The point is, if we have a reboot, some of us won't come along. I think that was the point that Daimoth was making.
Yes, I understand what people “think” I am talking about, and my point is that it wouldn’t be a reboot like the ripture wars but just a world altering event like the ripture wars. However, the transition would be to a more modern architecture for vets to retain their skill sets and into a world where newbies have a chance to play with vets. However, this world would have different rules, meaning certain polarized builds might need to be tweaked (thus the need and inclusion of a penalty free retrainer “Darwinius?” to allow player to adapt the first few months). I have detailed in many threads how this can be accomplished, including rank sharing, power scaling with the introduction of new threats, healer share gains (so healers can rank at the rate of fighters in the same amount of active hunt/play time), share pool expansion and elimination of slaughter. Of course I recognize that Joe would have to sign off on a revamp in order to transfer characters, and I would hope to accommodate the current volunteer GMs but also expand GM tools and streamline development to production process in order to handle submissions in a timely and communicative manner which has been a gripe heard from former contributors in offline communication.

I also have ideas for player donations (so the game remains free for those that cannot afford it and not tied to corrupting financial gain goals skewing) to be pooled and distributed to GMs based on use logs, as well as player and peer recognition. Yes, crazy idea, but I think if it could work anywhere, it could work in CL based on the community.

and just for fun, I found this in my big book of old computer CDs:
Image
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Gil Galad’s Pirates http://pirates.clanlord.net/ & Ranger Studies: http://studies.clanlord.net/
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Sonny_Bill
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Sonny_Bill » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:34 am

Lorikeet wrote:The point is, if we have a reboot, some of us won't come along. I think that was the point that Daimoth was making.
To be honest I don't really care. Those who REALLY love the game... love the style of the game and will be committed to encouraging NEW players to jump on board. If losing your absolute power over the game (i.e. you'll no longer be circle 8 and n00bs will be discovering the game WITH you) means you're no longer interested, then maybe it's a good thing? I wouldn't mind flushing out some of the old hats.

At max there's 5-10 people who would quit and they'd easily be replaced if the game was re-jigged to cater for n00bs. The game currently best resembles:
- One of those oldschool Japanese companies where you HAVE to join right after high school... otherwise you'll never catch up. There's no merit based promotions, and everything's based on how long you've been there. While these systems still exist to some degree... most companies have modernised and they're producing better quality goods as a result. Or...
- An RSL club that only takes in WWI veterans and doesn't recognise the achievements of younger soldiers. These clubs eventually had to accept that WWI vets were becoming rarer and rarer, so they opened up membership/ceremonies to WWII vets... then Vietnam vets... Then guess what? They opened doors to the public. A bunch of crusty old vets said 'if you open the doors to the public then I'll quit!!!' They didn't (they still had their room out the back + kept their privileges), and the act of encouraging more people to participate turned them into long-term viable clubs.

If people are saying 'I'll quit if you do what all the n00bs + general public who don't even play want' then WTF is their cause? They're just dinosaurs who have worked their way up to circle 7/8 and don't want to lose that status/let others be 'leaders'. Tonight a 'leader' logged in (when it was just me and Stora online... a common occurance). He lured some enemies into town to kill Stora, chained stora to a place where he'd get mangled badly and then chained him back to TC. I was the only other player online and have NFI why somebody who most consider to be a 'good' person would do this! Seriously... if guys like this move on then I really wouldn't care. The game would be more open/enjoyable without them and their constant threat of 'quitting' if there are changes to the game that they don't like.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:02 am

Without community, CL2 has nothing dozens of other similar niche games don't have.

CL2 without the long term community members would be all kick and no start.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:54 am

Sonny_Bill wrote:To be honest I don't really care. Those who REALLY love the game... love the style of the game and will be committed to encouraging NEW players to jump on board. If losing your absolute power over the game (i.e. you'll no longer be circle 8 and n00bs will be discovering the game WITH you) means you're no longer interested, then maybe it's a good thing? I wouldn't mind flushing out some of the old hats.
Rebooting now would kinda be like forcing WoW players to go back to tooling around in Stratholme for level 55 pre-MC gear. Most just wouldn't want to do it. Also, without a guarantee of players to replace these, it would probably languish and die pretty fast.

I think a better solution would be to catch players up to the point where 8th circlers no longer seem like invincible gods to them. We'd be better off retaining the current community (tiny though it may be) while trying to attract new players to it.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Daimoth » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:49 am

You'd lose a lot more than 5-10 people. And you should definitely care about that.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

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