Clan Lord Kickstarter

Polls, discussion and commentary on suggested issues.

Moderators: Lorikeet, CL GMs

Would you contribute to a massive CL update financially?

Yes.
51
85%
No. But I support the effort.
2
3%
No. Bad idea!
7
12%
 
Total votes: 60

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Destian
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:33 am

Maeght wrote:It's a prediction.
Fair enough.
Stop the presses!
It's not a new fact. The idea that something will actually be done about it, however, is.
For the record, spitballing is throwing out a gazillion ideas, most of which completely ignore the history of the game and what the GMs have said over the years.
Being able to raise healers with RHSs ignores the history of the game. Subclasses ignore the history of the game. Pets ignore the history of the game.

There's no "Ye Ole Book of Clan Lorde" sitting on a pedestal somewhere, waiting for the GMs to consult it regarding whether or not certain additions are permissible.

Games change and adapt. It's in their nature. No one expected CL to last this long, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it last even longer, especially when all it will take to extend the longevity is retaining some of the new players CL gets.

And TBH, if we're going to cry foul on something ignoring the history of the game, rangers soloing is by far the biggest offender in that category. "Thou shalt not solo" would be commandment #1 in CL's book...
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:58 am

Destian wrote: And TBH, if we're going to cry foul on something ignoring the history of the game, rangers soloing is by far the biggest offender in that category. "Thou shalt not solo" would be commandment #1 in CL's book...
It was a mistake and the GMs have admitted that. That mistake had consequences in future game design as well, so I suspect GMs are even more careful now about introducing things that change game balance.

And people have soloed in the game long before rangers were a game mechanic subclass. Once upon a time even a healer soloed.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:30 am

Maeght wrote:It was a mistake and the GMs have admitted that. That mistake had consequences in future game design as well, so I suspect GMs are even more careful now about introducing things that change game balance.
True, though inaction can be more damaging than the decision to change something.
And people have soloed in the game long before rangers were a game mechanic subclass. Once upon a time even a healer soloed.
How did a healer solo? The atkus drop off is terrible, as is the slaughter rate...

I've seen Tara "solo" with her pet by killing orgas and collecting chests, so I guess you could count that...
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:31 am

Destian wrote: How did a healer solo? The atkus drop off is terrible, as is the slaughter rate...
Awaria and no Bodrus/Hardia cap. There were a few healers that decided to train a LOT of Bodrus/Hardia. I don't know how effective they were back then but it was enough that fighters were beginning to complain.

And back then I think the population was a bit more interested in exploring the possibilities in the game than pure rank/slaughter optimization.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:40 am

Maeght wrote:Awaria and no Bodrus/Hardia cap. There were a few healers that decided to train a LOT of Bodrus/Hardia. I don't know how effective they were back then but it was enough that fighters were beginning to complain.
Ahhh, okay. But it's not a situation that could be replicated today, right?

Back in the day, I toyed with the idea of trying to build Destian into a "paladin" through lots of Hardia, but that was a time when a healer being able to fight off the myrms in the first snell of the hive to rescue a fallen was impressive, heh...

Obviously, I abandoned the idea, but I'm still quite pleased with my 100 bodrus as it allows me to evade many smaller, annoying critters that could otherwise chisel away at me in sufficient quantity.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:16 pm

Destian wrote: Ahhh, okay. But it's not a situation that could be replicated today, right?

Back in the day, I toyed with the idea of trying to build Destian into a "paladin" through lots of Hardia, but that was a time when a healer being able to fight off the myrms in the first snell of the hive to rescue a fallen was impressive, heh...

Obviously, I abandoned the idea, but I'm still quite pleased with my 100 bodrus as it allows me to evade many smaller, annoying critters that could otherwise chisel away at me in sufficient quantity.
Well, you made me look. I was thinking that the cap wasn't really needed but it looks like if one of those old school fighting healers trained mostly Bodrus/Hardia, they could actually hit current content. They'd be awful fighters, but they could have enough self-heal to be pretty self reliant.

But no, since Bodrus et all are capped, healers, mystics (I assume), and non-classed wouldn't be able to do the same thing. Though a mystic might be able to do something similar with self-boosts. (Balance recovery would be hideously awful.)

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:44 pm

Yeah, I remember Hardia isn't technically capped, but you can accidentally reduce your number of swings to 0 if you train too much of it, IIRC.

All things considered, I wonder what any of the Hardia hardcores would have to say about pets if they ever came back to see them...
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Sonny_Bill » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:13 pm

Destian wrote:
Maeght wrote:But without health, noobs would slow hunts down too much.
That's your opinion, and it's not shared by people who organize hunts.

And frankly, NOTHING slows a hunt down more than a ranger trying to get their first 10 lasties and yet we do this for rangers.
All this to try to accommodate a handful of people per year. Yes, it would be nice if the game was still attractive to new players. It's not.
Exactly... a circle 2 player falls, they can be healed with one pulse from a circle 8 healer (who's probably radius healing anyway). It wastes very little spirit and nobody is inconvenienced. If there's some intense fighting then leave them down until it's over or get somebody to chain them. An atkus sword would have the added bonus that n00bz could focus more on developing their health/swengus stats rather than ever-pursuing more atkus. So actually... they'd fall less often a) because they'd develop better team/clicking skills (not that hard) and b) because they'd potentially be able to train higher base stats in health/balance (oh and the coining would allow them to afford armour/train in the library more quickly).

Until the time comes that an active player (no not Maeght) says 'I don't want n00bz on hunts... they really p!ss me off and slow me down' then I think Maeght's point is completely invalid. To throw a log on the western beach fire... if Maeght actually played and was friendly towards n00bs it would be even easier for n00bs!! We've got this circle 8 healer who COULD simply login, take n00bz out for the odd hunt (with a ~circle 5 fighter or whatever as a finisher), be nice to everybody and realise that n00bs need RANKS RANKS RANKS (not your constant, rambling, condescending 'advice') then we'd all be better off. IMO 85% of the game is about the social aspect... this is one of my weaknesses (and I'm working on it) but mate... you could do soooo much more with your ranks if you logged in occasionally and tried to help people. The irony is that it would help Maeght more than anybody because he could be getting a bunch of shares from n00bz who are vanquishing masses of enemies... some thing to think about... maaaaaaate!

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:38 pm

Sonny_Bill wrote: Until the time comes that an active player (no not Maeght) says 'I don't want n00bz on hunts... they really p!ss me off and slow me down' then I think Maeght's point is completely invalid. To throw a log on the western beach fire... if Maeght actually played and was friendly towards n00bs it would be even easier for n00bs!! We've got this circle 8 healer who COULD simply login, take n00bz out for the odd hunt (with a ~circle 5 fighter or whatever as a finisher), be nice to everybody and realise that n00bs need RANKS RANKS RANKS (not your constant, rambling, condescending 'advice') then we'd all be better off. IMO 85% of the game is about the social aspect... this is one of my weaknesses (and I'm working on it) but mate... you could do soooo much more with your ranks if you logged in occasionally and tried to help people. The irony is that it would help Maeght more than anybody because he could be getting a bunch of shares from n00bz who are vanquishing masses of enemies... some thing to think about... maaaaaaate!
Sonny, I've burned more library ranks than you'll get this year hanging out in town and helping noobs. I still log in from time to time and make a point of watching by sharing newer folks. I used to do a lot more but RL doesn't leave as much time for Clan Lord as it used to.

Hell, I even shared you from my noob character recently and ran back to town to rustle up some help for you (you were fallen) since that character doesn't have a sunstone yet.

And you sure do need advice whether or not it comes from me.

I don't help with my healer any more because what I learned was that noobs learned a lot of bad habits when their mistakes were erased as fast as they made them.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Sonny_Bill » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:07 pm

Maeght wrote:Sonny, I've burned more library ranks than you'll get this year hanging out in town and helping noobs. I still log in from time to time and make a point of watching by sharing newer folks. I used to do a lot more but RL doesn't leave as much time for Clan Lord as it used to.
I checked with Stora this morning and your character hasn't logged in for weeks. Your RL argument might have substance if you didn't sit on Vagile 24/7 talking rubbish.
Maeght wrote:And you sure do need advice whether or not it comes from me.
I'm fine thank you and am enjoying CL. I can't remember any recent instances where a n00b found me and ran to town (and certainly nobody mentioned it at the time) but thanks if you did. For the past few months I've pretty well exclusively been hunting noids, jades and midnight wendies with medium sized groups. When I'm not doing that, I'm coining at kitty beach with my friend (a circle 3 healer who can chain). I've grown a lot stronger/more skillful and should hit circle 3 within the month (without your help).

Sure... I'll learn things along the way through discussions/experience... but your 'how to kill a rat' lesson 'teached me nutten' that's why I walked out on your 'lesson' and told you to eff off. It's a team game, NOT an individual game and IMO team/social skills are greater than all. No matter how good you think you are at clicking, I don't think the game is about locking yourself up with a self-proclaimed 'expert' and listening to them ramble. You need to get out there amongst people, make social connections and learn from experience/errors!!!

No, I'm not the very best clicker in the game. However, my skills are adequate, and I'm not tripping over my shoe laces (as you keep suggesting). I'm almost circle 3 (in a very short time frame), learned how to balance the training out myself and have made a few social/timing connections that allow me to get at least 2 ranks and a few hundred coins each night (often 5-10 ranks). If you're going to ignore this and keep acting as if I'm tripping over my shoe laces, then I can't take you seriously either.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:52 pm

Sonny_Bill wrote:if Maeght actually played and was friendly towards n00bs it would be even easier for n00bs!! We've got this circle 8 healer who COULD simply login, take n00bz out for the odd hunt (with a ~circle 5 fighter or whatever as a finisher), be nice to everybody and realise that n00bs need RANKS RANKS RANKS (not your constant, rambling, condescending 'advice') then we'd all be better off. IMO 85% of the game is about the social aspect... this is one of my weaknesses (and I'm working on it) but mate... you could do soooo much more with your ranks if you logged in occasionally and tried to help people. The irony is that it would help Maeght more than anybody because he could be getting a bunch of shares from n00bz who are vanquishing masses of enemies... some thing to think about... maaaaaaate!
I used to be "Captain Noob Helper", but I gave up when when I realized that there's just no saving new players in the current state of the game. Invariably, everyone I tried to help, no matter HOW MUCH I tried to help, would quit when they realized just how long of a grind they were looking at before they could actually hunt with the rest of us. I couldn't really blame them, either.

CL has been boiled down to a game where people pretty much log on for one of two reasons:

1. For scheduled hunts.

2. To double or triple click multiple characters.

The window in which it would've been feasible to restart the newbie game has long since closed. It would take, like, Chris Pratt (or some other massively popular celebrity) stating that Clan Lord is their favorite game ever in an interview in order to jump start the newbie community now.

The only thing we could hope to do at this point is give new players something that'll allow them to participate on modern hunts, then get them to log in during those hunt windows.

Acceleration won't work because 10X exp multiplied by 0 is still 0. Handing players ranks could work, but only if an older player had to be the one to help them get to the ranks (like the current exp spots). Even then, that's a LOT of ranks to spend and there's no guarantee this new player wouldn't just waste them outright and accidentally get a ton of skea ranks or something.

The best option would be to give new players the ability to tag anything for squat damage and thus give the community the chance to take them on hunts.

Until then, it's just kinda hopeless. I don't have as much time to play CL as I used to, and you'll find that the game actually actively DISCOURAGES players from playing it when there's nothing going on because you have a net loss of exp for playing the game.

Yeah, I know...
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:16 pm

Sonny_Bill wrote:
Maeght wrote:Sonny, I've burned more library ranks than you'll get this year hanging out in town and helping noobs. I still log in from time to time and make a point of watching by sharing newer folks. I used to do a lot more but RL doesn't leave as much time for Clan Lord as it used to.
I checked with Stora this morning and your character hasn't logged in for weeks. Your RL argument might have substance if you didn't sit on Vagile 24/7 talking rubbish.
This would be incorrect. Timestamp from my last login as Maeght (not my only character): 11/29/14 8:07:44a
Sonny_Bill wrote: I'm fine thank you and am enjoying CL. I can't remember any recent instances where a n00b found me and ran to town (and certainly nobody mentioned it at the time) but thanks if you did. For the past few months I've pretty well exclusively been hunting noids, jades and midnight wendies with medium sized groups. When I'm not doing that, I'm coining at kitty beach with my friend (a circle 3 healer who can chain). I've grown a lot stronger/more skillful and should hit circle 3 within the month (without your help).
I didn't say I found you. When I got the message you'd been fallen for some time, I ran back to town to let the mystics know.

12/5/14 10:05:06p Sonny Bill has been fallen for some time because of a Bolok Cougar.
Sonny_Bill wrote: No, I'm not the very best clicker in the game. However, my skills are adequate, and I'm not tripping over my shoe laces (as you keep suggesting). I'm almost circle 3 (in a very short time frame), learned how to balance the training out myself and have made a few social/timing connections that allow me to get at least 2 ranks and a few hundred coins each night (often 5-10 ranks). If you're going to ignore this and keep acting as if I'm tripping over my shoe laces, then I can't take you seriously either.
I'm glad it's working better for you now. It sounds like you've picked up quite a bit.

But I do know a few things. On your "dare" I created a noob character and for a couple of weeks I was able to put in a few hours. This character may have a couple hundred ranks now. Still dispatching rats and still finding the occasional vanquish to solo.

12/5/14 10:04:44p You vanquished a Giant Vermine.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Sativa » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:15 pm

New players don't need to learn lessons in a bs way.. They need cool people to play areas that would be too hard for them alone. They get vanqs, they learn the ropes, they learn to appreciate the community. We need population, and some kind of gimmick that lets people play it more conveniently. A cellphone based app, button-based system for commands, and expedited route to top-tier combat would be ideal imo.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Zelkhorn » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:31 pm

At the risk of over-posting in the thread, I just want to say one last thing. This is directed at no one in particular and can reach beyond this thread, and it's just my perspective.

I really think it's important to avoid excessive use of hyperbole when dealing with junk like this. Almost no one gains anything from the repetitive doomsaying, least of all the majority of the active playerbase at a time when new content is actively being developed for the game and most of us are pretty excited and positive about what's to come.

If I was a developer and happened to be reading these threads, any bright suggestions would be lost in the mire of negativity and most especially what feels like a bottomless pit of bitching. As a player, as far back as my first month, reading The Sentinel actually chipped away at my interest in the game little by little -- the way things are handled here just felt so heavy and weird that it often left me doubting whether the game was worth my time, even if I was actually having fun in-game. I can't imagine what it's like for the people who are trying to build for us.

I'm of the opinion that the best way to support the game is to play it. While I realize that some people can't play often due to RL issues and whatnot, to make up for any lost playtime by being particularly doom-y here probably does very little to help.

While I'm a big fan of Clan Lord and will happily dispense learned lore and links to interested parties, I would really not recommend any new players but the most addicted/dedicated come to The Sentinel to source information on the game.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:18 pm

I appreciate the hell out of what the GMs do. I love pets. I love the new areas. I don't even play a champ but I'm happy that they've been buffed.

That said, it's unbelievably fucking crushing to have to tell a new player, a player who genuinely LIKES Clan Lord, the ugly truth about just how bad the grind ahead of them is.

Yokaru was a newbie fighter (who I captured on film in the pet video I put together) who asked me point blank when he was going to be able to hunt with the rest of the playerbase.

I took him to every exp spot I could reach (I believe I gave him a sunstone as well), went out hunting with him...did everything I could to try to keep him playing.

But just like dozens of other new players, players who decided to give CL a shot despite its 2D graphics and 4 FPS, he got frustrated and quit. He was a nice guy, too. Really polite, decent clicker, but he like many before him couldn't climb the massive wall of grind that stood between him and just playing the game how it was meant to be played. It's like watching someone drown and being unable to save them: Here's this GREAT guy who wants to play CL and would no doubt make a solid addition to the community, and I can't do a goddamn thing to REALLY help him stay in the game...

I can literally get myself angry thinking about the situation. That's why I just gave up trying to help new players. That's why Daimoth and no doubt numerous others also gave up: we can't spend years (fucking YEARS!!!) doing an exp grind with a new player only to have them quit because they're STILL not in range of the community.

And new healers? Yeah, right...

I want to see CL thrive. I want to see it with an adequate number of players. In the past, I could do something to help make that a reality.

Now, I am completely powerless to help new players join the CL community, and it makes me an odd combination of frustrated and furious. :(

God willing, Lori's plea will bring about the solution we need...
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