Clan Lord Kickstarter

Polls, discussion and commentary on suggested issues.

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Would you contribute to a massive CL update financially?

Yes.
52
85%
No. But I support the effort.
2
3%
No. Bad idea!
7
11%
 
Total votes: 61

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by noivad » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:15 am

Deatian & Maeght are both right: CL is simple to pick up & the basic mechanic is “bump or be bumped.”
However, a couple of things: we are not automatically coordinated as a group & we are not on a grid. Add in a variable of 2D navigation & a each person & creature being at a variable spot in an XY plane, then have that change in real time & it is easy to see that more people & creatures = more variables. The creature variables are somewhat predictable & with observation you can figure out its timing. The pursuit AI that chases one person can be timed to switch every X seconds based on various factors such as proximity & health etc. Ferallers have a “circle nearest target time” & cannot compensate for an intersecting or avoidance vector (which is how you catch up to them or avoid them attacking you.) So, at least those are predictable & thus somewhat controllable.

Next the exile variable really depends on you knowing each person’s movement habits. Each player has distinguishing moves they will do as a response to attacks or retreats (like a fingerprint or movement signature): some players always stop to hold creatures & let others pound on them — very easy to deal with unless they stop obstructing your movement either to or away from the creature—so have your pull finger ready. Others will dart in & out and either “camp” until they hit or move away letting another person in to hit. Then there are people that try to cover other players: if they see a person in trouble they will try to step in between the creature & fragile person to keep them alive—such as rods & bricks, & others that will run away white leaving the creature to swing at the yellow or red players. Then there are people that will always lead a creature toward arod or brick that stands still & “drop” it on them so the rod/brick can be used most efficiently while others will just take hit after hit or just run away from the group & end up dead even if a rod brick is available & open enough to drop on.

These are but a few examples of things everyone is familiar with. So, yes it is simple: try to stay out of each other’s way & pay attention, but with so many situations, the sheer number of variables not even considering stats, makes for a very “natural” (read “complex”) puzzle. Remember “simplicity” does not always equal “ease.” To always equate the two would be foolish. As Maeght said (paraphrasing) “knowing the moves to a game is a lot different than knowing which are the best to use at the right time” (mastery) which is also happening in real time. This also means that unlike chess the situation can change in an instant & people have to pay attention to adapt to it. Simple right? Wrong: someone is either always lagging or gets distracted long enough to be standing in the wrong place which can cause a wipe, or near wipe. Again: not so easy.

Anyway, I hope newbies can get some sort of accelleration mechanic, be it my idea or another one that gets them hunting with people. Despite my 16(?) years here, I can sympathize with many newbies because only about 25% of the people I ever showed the game to ever played it more than a year or 2 consistently, & probably even less still play ocassionally. A mechanic to ramp up newbies to join the fun should consist of also teaching them more about how movements are important—but I will keep that in the wishful thinking category & just be grateful when new people stick around.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:42 am

Maeght wrote:Really?

Define a flank attack in Clan Lord.
Something a person doesn't need to know about in order to hunt with the rest of the community (also bumping something from the side).

I agree that there are more advanced tactics in group hunting, but someone only learns those tactics by (big surprise) hunting with a group...
noivad wrote:Anyway, I hope newbies can get some sort of accelleration mechanic, be it my idea or another one that gets them hunting with people. Despite my 16(?) years here, I can sympathize with many newbies because only about 25% of the people I ever showed the game to ever played it more than a year or 2 consistently, & probably even less still play ocassionally. A mechanic to ramp up newbies to join the fun should consist of also teaching them more about how movements are important—but I will keep that in the wishful thinking category & just be grateful when new people stick around.
And this is all we really need.

Just something to give new players hope that they won't be riding the scrub train for years before they can get off at community station. ;)
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:57 am

noivad wrote: Anyway, I hope newbies can get some sort of accelleration mechanic, be it my idea or another one that gets them hunting with people. Despite my 16(?) years here, I can sympathize with many newbies because only about 25% of the people I ever showed the game to ever played it more than a year or 2 consistently, & probably even less still play ocassionally. A mechanic to ramp up newbies to join the fun should consist of also teaching them more about how movements are important—but I will keep that in the wishful thinking category & just be grateful when new people stick around.
2k ranks doesn't get you hunting in current content. A magic tagging weapon doesn't keep you from constantly getting one-hit.

So which idea lets "real" noobs participate in the game from day 1?

Even if you have a method that works, just how many newbie tolerant hunts do you think there will be and will that be enough to keep a noob interested? One of the greatest thrills in Clan Lord is to hunt with a group that meshes well.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by FriedDylan » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:57 am

We already have experience spots in the game. They need to be able to bring people up to speed faster and taper off as the player gets older.. or more experienced. This is how it works now but the amount gained is too small to bring someone 'up to speed'.

Simply we can't cheapen the experience by doing the WoW 'join now and become a level 90 character.' We do need to agree on what ranks would make someone a viable newbie in today's world and get buy-in from the powers that be to make it happen. The fact that people can pick any trainer they have access to and customize for each spot they visit is way ahead and brings the work that needs to be done by a GM down a bit. We need to alter those exp multipliers into a new place.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:40 am

Maeght wrote:A magic tagging weapon doesn't keep you from constantly getting one-hit.
So you're saying mystics shouldn't go on hunts, ever? :P

I'm pretty sure we expect new players to get one-hit. That's why we bring 3-4 healers along...
Even if you have a method that works, just how many newbie tolerant hunts do you think there will be and will that be enough to keep a noob interested? One of the greatest thrills in Clan Lord is to hunt with a group that meshes well.
All it takes is one to keep me interested: Lori's, and if those new players are giving tagging shares, I'm certain they'll be taken along (unless they're horrible people that make the hunt unenjoyable, but that could happen with anyone at any number of ranks...).
FriedDylan wrote:We already have experience spots in the game. They need to be able to bring people up to speed faster and taper off as the player gets older.. or more experienced. This is how it works now but the amount gained is too small to bring someone 'up to speed'.

Simply we can't cheapen the experience by doing the WoW 'join now and become a level 90 character.' We do need to agree on what ranks would make someone a viable newbie in today's world and get buy-in from the powers that be to make it happen. The fact that people can pick any trainer they have access to and customize for each spot they visit is way ahead and brings the work that needs to be done by a GM down a bit. We need to alter those exp multipliers into a new place.
I feel like the tagging weapon is a better solution for this reason. With it, new players will be...

-Learning to hunt by actually hunting
-Spending time with the community and learning how things work, including when the regular hunts happen
-Ranking like goddamn crazy from hunting the highest level areas (even new healers!)
-Making money

We expect there will be a learning curve, but that's the price we pay for actually getting NEW players into the game (and staying there).

And let's be honest: the tagging weapon is the most lightweight solution in terms of programming. It's effectively a shiny dagger with a bajillion Atkus and zero Darkus.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:21 am

Destian wrote:
Maeght wrote:A magic tagging weapon doesn't keep you from constantly getting one-hit.
So you're saying mystics shouldn't go on hunts, ever? :P

I'm pretty sure we expect new players to get one-hit. That's why we bring 3-4 healers along...
You're aware that generally mystics aren't tagging like a noob? You're aware that someone falling all the time slows down the hunt? Typically you can wait to raise the mystic because their role isn't tagging.
Destian wrote:
Even if you have a method that works, just how many newbie tolerant hunts do you think there will be and will that be enough to keep a noob interested? One of the greatest thrills in Clan Lord is to hunt with a group that meshes well.
All it takes is one to keep me interested: Lori's, and if those new players are giving tagging shares, I'm certain they'll be taken along (unless they're horrible people that make the hunt unenjoyable, but that could happen with anyone at any number of ranks...).
You overestimate the capacity for our existing hunts to accept unlimited hunt draggers along. If they're falling all the time, their share isn't worth the drag on the hunt.
Destian wrote: And let's be honest: the tagging weapon is the most lightweight solution in terms of programming. It's effectively a shiny dagger with a bajillion Atkus and zero Darkus.
Uh no, it's not. Nobody could swing a shiny dagger with a bajillion Atkus.

<insert obligatory XKCD comic about how "easy" programming is>

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:36 pm

Maeght wrote:You're aware that someone falling all the time slows down the hunt?
You're aware that this is a price many people will happily pay to alleviate the otherwise total LACK of new players joining the regular hunting community?
You overestimate the capacity for our existing hunts to accept unlimited hunt draggers along. If they're falling all the time, their share isn't worth the drag on the hunt.
You overestimate the number of these people we'll see. CL gets one new player maybe every THREE months.

Besides, the other point here is that, eventually, the number of new players sticking with the game will give rise to more regular hunts, thus spreading people out.
Uh no, it's not. Nobody could swing a shiny dagger with a bajillion Atkus.
Sure they can, if the dagger also grants the necessary Balthus.

The shiny dagger grants a massive Atkus boost while granting additional swings as well. Unless there's some kind of hard limit on the stats a weapon can grant, then such a thing should be feasible to create.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:22 pm

Destian wrote: You overestimate the number of these people we'll see. CL gets one new player maybe every THREE months.

Besides, the other point here is that, eventually, the number of new players sticking with the game will give rise to more regular hunts, thus spreading people out.
In just what decade do you project that happening?
Destian wrote:
Uh no, it's not. Nobody could swing a shiny dagger with a bajillion Atkus.
Sure they can, if the dagger also grants the necessary Balthus.

The shiny dagger grants a massive Atkus boost while granting additional swings as well. Unless there's some kind of hard limit on the stats a weapon can grant, then such a thing should be feasible to create.
The bonus the shiny dagger gives is massive for very very small values of massive.

http://gorvin.50webs.com/weaponTable.html

Click on dagger, shiny dagger and greataxe. Keep in mind these bars are really only big relative to people with little combat training.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:39 pm

Maeght wrote:In just what decade do you project that happening?
That remains to be seen, but I've heard more than a few people state that the key reason they don't attempt to bring their friends into CL is because of how horrendous the game is for new players.

I'm not saying we'll have a population explosion, but we could see people start bringing new players into the game on a more regular basis.
Click on dagger, shiny dagger and greataxe. Keep in mind these bars are really only big relative to people with little combat training.
Even if, for whatever reason, the item couldn't be laden with enough stats to do it, I'm guessing it would be easier to create a weapon that always did 1 histia worth of damage than it would be to create an NPC that gives players up to 2,000 ranks or does what the Historian would do, or adjust the entire rank curve (which wouldn't actually fix anything since 0 exp is still zero no matter how you multiply it).

Again, we'll see what the GMs cook up...
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by noivad » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:43 pm

Maeght wrote:
noivad wrote: Anyway, I hope newbies can get some sort of accelleration mechanic, be it my idea or another one that gets them hunting with people. Despite my 16(?) years here, I can sympathize with many newbies because only about 25% of the people I ever showed the game to ever played it more than a year or 2 consistently, & probably even less still play ocassionally. A mechanic to ramp up newbies to join the fun should consist of also teaching them more about how movements are important—but I will keep that in the wishful thinking category & just be grateful when new people stick around.
2k ranks doesn't get you hunting in current content. A magic tagging weapon doesn't keep you from constantly getting one-hit.

So which idea lets "real" noobs participate in the game from day 1?

Even if you have a method that works, just how many newbie tolerant hunts do you think there will be and will that be enough to keep a noob interested? One of the greatest thrills in Clan Lord is to hunt with a group that meshes well.
What in my quote are you replying to with an argument? Did you clip the wrong person’s comment or trying to put words in my mouth or what? If you are asking for my idea, you can scroll up or add one of your own. Your only critique to the rank-linking/power-sharing idea I had was that the math would be hard to do (despite there being known negative feedback algorithms that would take very little effort to implement). It is a lot harder to come up with an idea than to shoot one down…
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:26 pm

noivad wrote: What in my quote are you replying to with an argument? Did you clip the wrong person’s comment or trying to put words in my mouth or what? If you are asking for my idea, you can scroll up or add one of your own. Your only critique to the rank-linking/power-sharing idea I had was that the math would be hard to do (despite there being known negative feedback algorithms that would take very little effort to implement). It is a lot harder to come up with an idea than to shoot one down…
Yes, it is. But it's infinitely easier to spitball ideas than to come up with an implementation that fits the situation.

IMO there is no number of free ranks that would make noobs hunworthy and that the GMs would agree to hand out.

There is no magic item that they'd be willing to give out that would make enough of a difference. Destian's tag blade would basically have to be a bloodblade without the negatives and darkus. But without health, noobs would slow hunts down too much.

The other option, to take "power" from the high end doesn't work either, even if you could get enough of a pool of ranks to make a noob competitive, which I doubt.

All this to try to accommodate a handful of people per year. Yes, it would be nice if the game was still attractive to new players. It's not. The best answer to the noob problem is more noobs. There's just not enough there there.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:39 am

Maeght wrote:But without health, noobs would slow hunts down too much.
That's your opinion, and it's not shared by people who organize hunts.

And frankly, NOTHING slows a hunt down more than a ranger trying to get their first 10 lasties and yet we do this for rangers.
All this to try to accommodate a handful of people per year. Yes, it would be nice if the game was still attractive to new players. It's not.
Tell this to the new players who, despite all of CL's quirks and shortcomings, have shown up to try it.

Hell, you've said it YOURSELF that there's a very specific type of player who is LOOKING for a game like CL. Problem is, even THOSE people don't stick around.

The goal here is not to attract gobs of new players because I don't think anyone feels that'd be realistic. Rather, the goal is to RETAIN the few new players we do get. Refer to Lori's open letter to the GMs on the frustrations that arise from watching new players leave CL because there's simply no way for them to exist.

If what you say is true and the GMs have no desire to give out free ranks (even though they already have given them free ranks through exp spots), then the ONLY alternative is to give new players a means to gain exp from hunting with the rest of the community. Add in the fact that they will effectively be practicing for their future of group hunting and the benefit is obvious.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:17 am

Destian wrote:
Maeght wrote:But without health, noobs would slow hunts down too much.
That's your opinion, and it's not shared by people who organize hunts.
Have you asked them? Because I have and it's not just my opinion.
Destian wrote: And frankly, NOTHING slows a hunt down more than a ranger trying to get their first 10 lasties and yet we do this for rangers.
There is a direct and immediate payoff for getting a ranger those lasties. The hunt at worst resumes normal speed and more likely goes faster once they're done.
Destian wrote: If what you say is true and the GMs have no desire to give out free ranks (even though they already have given them free ranks through exp spots), then the ONLY alternative is to give new players a means to gain exp from hunting with the rest of the community. Add in the fact that they will effectively be practicing for their future of group hunting and the benefit is obvious.
I never said they wouldn't give out free ranks. I said they wouldn't give them out in the amounts you think are necessary to retain noobs.

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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Destian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:40 am

Maeght wrote:Have you asked them? Because I have and it's not just my opinion.
Lori has said that she doesn't mind a few "sightseers" on her hunts, and Daimoth would be the biggest hypocrite ever if he didn't take a newbie tagger or two along.
There is a direct and immediate payoff for getting a ranger those lasties. The hunt at worst resumes normal speed and more likely goes faster once they're done.
And there's a direct payoff for leveling up new members of the community: a new, permanent member of CL's regular hunting crew.

And the community is willing to help these people level. We've been trying to help new players level for YEARS but our tools are just completely inadequate for doing so. Leveling a new player requires spending months with them while they tag low level mobs all over the game, and despite many people doing this for new players, they STILL quit because of how horrendously long the grind is.

Hand them the tagging weapon and suddenly, they'll be right there with the rest of us on regular hunts. Ubers won't be wasting their time doing things that don't benefit them (or even vary from their regular routine) and newbies will be with the community, learning how to hunt first hand, and leveling extremely quickly while doing it (even new healers, FFS).
I said they wouldn't give them out in the amounts you think are necessary to retain noobs.
You sure love putting words in people's mouths. You've already decided that the GMs won't boost new players to community level and that hunt organizers won't take new players on hunts, despite neither group actually weighing in here (didn't you also decide that GMs would never give healers pets?).

It's going to be one or the other: either new players need the tools to rapidly get themselves to community level or the community needs the tools to help new players get there. Or we'll see the same rate of retention of new players that we have now, which is basically none.

And for the record, you're not "spitballing" when you're just shooting down ideas and offering none of your own.
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Re: Clan Lord Kickstarter

Post by Maeght » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:24 am

Destian wrote: You sure love putting words in people's mouths. You've already decided that the GMs won't boost new players to community level and that hunt organizers won't take new players on hunts, despite neither group actually weighing in here (didn't you also decide that GMs would never give healers pets?).
It's a prediction.
Destian wrote: It's going to be one or the other: either new players need the tools to rapidly get themselves to community level or the community needs the tools to help new players get there. Or we'll see the same rate of retention of new players that we have now, which is basically none.
Stop the presses!
Destian wrote: And for the record, you're not "spitballing" when you're just shooting down ideas and offering none of your own.
For the record, spitballing is throwing out a gazillion ideas, most of which completely ignore the history of the game and what the GMs have said over the years.

And I have made suggestions:

http://vagilemind.com/clanlord/viewtopi ... ce#p102363
http://vagilemind.com/clanlord/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9948

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