Make Clan Lord open-source

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Destian
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Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Destian » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:39 am

Seriously, it's time.

At this point, is there anything left to lose? No one is paying to play CL. No one ever WILL pay to play it at its current level of advancement.

A player who wants to could look at the code could potentially provide fixes, new features, etc. Basically, do what the GMs don't have time to do and offer it up to them as they finish it.

Really, I don't see any downside to making the CL code completely public at this point.

If you're worried about hackers finding exploits, then just give the code to trusted members of the community who want it.
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Maeght » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:34 am

I love when people generously advocate that others give their work away.

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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Torin » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:18 pm

Destian wrote:No one is paying to play CL.
False. I pay the annual fee every September. I can afford it, I know that CL has costs to cover, and I would like to do my little part to put off the day that it closes shop. I know that some others also pay. I think that Open Source or something in that direction is a good idea, but it's not necessary to base your case on falsehoods.

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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Destian » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:13 pm

Maeght wrote:I love when people generously advocate that others give their work away.
Uh, the point is not to "give it away" because I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who WANTS IT.

The point is to open up development to players who would like to submit code for addition to the game, pending GM approval and integration.

There have been a number of open-source projects that have had group development as I described.
Torin wrote:False. I pay the annual fee every September. I can afford it, I know that CL has costs to cover, and I would like to do my little part to put off the day that it closes shop. I know that some others also pay. I think that Open Source or something in that direction is a good idea, but it's not necessary to base your case on falsehoods.
There is no longer a required fee to pay CL. I didn't know you or anyone else was still paying for it.

My point is that CL will not likely ever be charging a regular monthly fee again (and especially not at its current development rate/player hemorrhaging rate). It's equally unlikely that the people still paying for it are going to leave for a CL competitor based upon the same code base.
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Maeght » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:27 pm

Destian wrote:
Uh, the point is not to "give it away" because I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who WANTS IT.

The point is to open up development to players who would like to submit code for addition to the game, pending GM approval and integration.

There have been a number of open-source projects that have had group development as I described.
I'm familiar with open source projects. Some thrive, some don't. The ones that thrive typically use modern programming languages and a modern code base. Open source is not a magic panacea. I don't think you can appreciate the effort involved.

The effort required to support player provided code is probably as much as the actual development effort. It'd be like an 8 year old offering to help cook dinner. Dinner will take twice as long.

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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Sproutfoot » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:47 pm

Torin wrote:
Destian wrote:No one is paying to play CL.
False. I pay the annual fee every September. I can afford it, I know that CL has costs to cover, and I would like to do my little part to put off the day that it closes shop. I know that some others also pay. I think that Open Source or something in that direction is a good idea, but it's not necessary to base your case on falsehoods.
I'd be interested in a comparison of running the CL server, and running a minecraft server or a private WoW server.

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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Trowl » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:07 pm

Actually Several People Want It.

But Open source is the wrong way to go, because people would set up private servers, make themselves Godlike, have sandbox fun for like a week, then get bored and leave.

The support base of Clanlord is already faltering - it doesn't need any more divisions.

Also, it uses a proprietary programming language which is rather difficult to understand.

Open source would solve no problems, only create more problems.

More content *might* be added, but its more likely that people would just see the gears behind the box and then leave, like the GMs do. Just ask braveheart.
In any case, the solution is simply adding more GMs, which is completely different.
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Destian » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:17 am

Trowl wrote:Actually Several People Want It.

But Open source is the wrong way to go, because people would set up private servers, make themselves Godlike, have sandbox fun for like a week, then get bored and leave.

The support base of Clanlord is already faltering - it doesn't need any more divisions.

Also, it uses a proprietary programming language which is rather difficult to understand.

Open source would solve no problems, only create more problems.

More content *might* be added, but its more likely that people would just see the gears behind the box and then leave, like the GMs do. Just ask braveheart.
In any case, the solution is simply adding more GMs, which is completely different.
Is that what happened to Braveheart?
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Gloria » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:35 pm

I disagree with the suggestion. That code is the private property of Delta Tao company. It would be bad for the company to reveal their code where anyone could copy it.
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Destian » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:24 pm

Gloria wrote:I disagree with the suggestion. That code is the private property of Delta Tao company. It would be bad for the company to reveal their code where anyone could copy it.
Sadly, there are only two types of people who would use the code:

1. People who want to submit new features for CL.

2. People like Trowl mentioned who would make a private CL server and rapidly burn out.
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Talas » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:12 am

I also disagree to this suggestion.

Additional to the mentioned things we would see some background information and do calculations with those like which trainer gives highest benefits while keeping slaugther rate low.
People could calculate when they will qualify for their morphs or what to do to qualify for subclasses.
They also might fetch the solutions to riddles while observing the code and detect where new things can be found that usually should have to be discovered ingame.
People could possibly also calculate where rare items could spawn...

Maybe some things would have been stored in a non-opened database as well but i think i made my point clear.

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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Destian » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:44 pm

Talas wrote:I also disagree to this suggestion.

Additional to the mentioned things we would see some background information and do calculations with those like which trainer gives highest benefits while keeping slaugther rate low.
People could calculate when they will qualify for their morphs or what to do to qualify for subclasses.
They also might fetch the solutions to riddles while observing the code and detect where new things can be found that usually should have to be discovered ingame.
People could possibly also calculate where rare items could spawn...

Maybe some things would have been stored in a non-opened database as well but i think i made my point clear.
I definitely see now why this would be a bad idea.

I had no idea this is why BH left...
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by noivad » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:01 am

I'm not against CL becoming a more open project, but the problem is if that were done DT would have to dedicate a person to check and merge all the changes back into the main branch. That seems unfeasible, considering the current GMs are (mostly?) volunteer anyway.
Also, Maeght makes 2 very good (and related) points: (1) CL is not based on a modern language that developers could just start pitching in. So, the ramp up time would mean a current GM would have to split their constrained development time between their projects and teaching the new GM the ropes. So, it would take a lot longer to complete projects for that GM.

If anything, my support is behind rebuilding CL from the ground up, based on a modern open language with strong support. As I've said DT knows many of the pitfalls in making an uncapped game, and could plan to avoid or alleviate as many problems as possible using the experience gained from over 14 years of CL. They could take what works and revamp what doesn't.

Modern scalable vector graphics, better dynamic behavior AIs, stronger modern OS support for the client (configurable UI, routable and classified sounds) are just touching on making the game look and act better. A more modular object environment with APIs would make remove the tangle of scripts we hear about in the current architecture, more data fields in the player DB for future expansion, area editors, script tools and item editors could be backend improvements. Really, using a "platform" approach the game, rather than a custom ball of sticky wax. I realize this is a radical and very remote possibility: but as long as we are "dreaming," we might as well dream big.
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by wangahrah » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:13 am

noivad wrote:everything noivad said
It's very unlikely and damn hard, and also I would support it completely.
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Re: Make Clan Lord open-source

Post by Hoggle » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Cool story, bro.

Again, i'm going to say "whattabout kickstarter?"

Have you been seeing the crazy types of funding going on there? Not that clanlord would get a fraction of the 2.2 million and counting(they wanted 400k) that this Double Fine point and click adventure is at now:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/667 ... e?ref=live

Or the 1.2 million The Order of the Stick(no affiliation!) got here(they wanted 57k):

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599 ... rint-drive

Or the 48k and counting that Erfworld is getting(to make a 'motion comic'... insert eyeroll.. they wanted 24k)

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/155 ... t?ref=live

But hey.. I bet clanlord could get a few thousand to do some needed healer upgrades. You could have some awesome rewards ranging from something simple like your character being listed on some thank you marker ala the ripture statue, to maybe some song written by a generous bard thats willing to kick in his skills, to maybe an artist that will do a portrait.. and ive already mentioned my willingness to throw down and do an action figure(in bendy silicone or acrylic!) of your character. Maybe they could even give away a house from the town square snell(one of the non-used ones) to a player to use and decorate as their own.

Its not even dirty dirty advertising that joe shuns, its player-base support. We would just need some type of agreement on what type of changes we'd all be willing to back and some gm interaction that they actually would spend the money to pay the gm who would be willing to take on this project.

Now, I know people will say(like they did last time) "we dont really need kickstarter.. we can do this on our own!" but evidently we can't. Sure, kickstarter gets their little cut, but that is only if the project gets fully funded. Delta Tao could say they need 6 thousand, and if the player base only could raise up to 300 dollars in proposed donations, nothing would happen with that money. The would be backers don't give up anything because the total amount wasnt raised. There is very little to lose I think.

Who knows what long gone players might still be wiling to fund this and possibly even come back. Who knows what new players we might find.

They should do this way before they do anything like make it open-source, in my opinion anyways.

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