Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Polls, discussion and commentary on suggested issues.

Moderators: Lorikeet, CL GMs

Less lasties, more morphs!

Yes!
16
59%
Maybe!
3
11%
No!
8
30%
 
Total votes: 27

User avatar
Hoggle
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 1448
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:03 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Dwarf
Player Status: Active

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Hoggle » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:51 pm

Well thats the first time you actually gave a number.

I dont think Tinker was just a beta tester away from cutting his numbers in half. When we spoke to him at the last ranger conference he almost seemed disheartened that so many people had morphs so quickly. Then the numbers for morphing were actualy increased a little(or atleast diguised so that "incredible" was now "vast")

Slarty had a crack at rangers himself. I don't think he was one suggestion away from cutting the number in half.

Clanlord has few real quests.. I'd ask we please dont eliminate the small ones we have. Stop trying to cut to the end of the game.

User avatar
Maeght
Trainer
Posts: 5647
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:05 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Halfling
Player Status: Active
Location: University of Puddleby
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Maeght » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:34 pm

Daimoth wrote: Because they're volunteer GMs (really awesome ones!), and this is a tiny game that doesn't use beta testers. That's how we end up with things as awful as the Mystic class
Mystics being in the game has nothing do with any lack of beta testing in Clan Lord.

- Maeght

User avatar
Daimoth
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 6180
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:29 pm
Profession: Destroyer of Worlds
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Daimoth » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:53 pm

Maeght wrote:Mystics being in the game has nothing do with any lack of beta testing in Clan Lord.
Nice nitpicking I guess. Let's change that to "beta testers with some notion of knowing what a good game is".
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

User avatar
Odesseus
Rising Claw
Rising Claw
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 11:20 am
Location: Wandering about trying to get into trouble
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Odesseus » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:55 pm

Unfortunately, I will likely never have anything approaching a good morph, since the time required to get one is not on my list. And since the easily achievable morphs are good for comic relief only, well, not that interested. Getting 2,000 lasties on some creature just isn't my cup of tea. If it were decreased, I dunno, maybe.

That's not to say I don't appreciate the morphs others have gotten. Lotta grinding. Go mighty morphin' rangers!
Be nice or I'll eat you. >:"E

User avatar
Maeght
Trainer
Posts: 5647
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:05 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Halfling
Player Status: Active
Location: University of Puddleby
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Maeght » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:22 pm

Daimoth wrote:
Maeght wrote:Mystics being in the game has nothing do with any lack of beta testing in Clan Lord.
Nice nitpicking I guess. Let's change that to "beta testers with some notion of knowing what a good game is".
Not a nit. This is fundamental to Clan Lord. Mystics work as intended. If 95% of the people wanted them changed to fireball casting wizards, it would NOT happen. Beta testing would not change that one whit.

Beta testing doesn't turn game design into a democracy.

- Maeght

Slartibartfast
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:25 pm

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Slartibartfast » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:24 pm

Hoggle wrote: Then the numbers for morphing were actualy increased a little(or atleast diguised so that "incredible" was now "vast")
Just the range of the messages were changed, so you'd always start off on the same message. The numbers remained unchanged. (So "about 1000" is still accurate.) But no, there aren't any plans to decrease the requirements.

User avatar
Daimoth
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 6180
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:29 pm
Profession: Destroyer of Worlds
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Daimoth » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:45 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:But no, there aren't any plans to decrease the requirements.
Well thanks for letting us know I guess.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

User avatar
noivad
Order of the White Elephant
Order of the White Elephant
Posts: 3327
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:04 pm
Profession: Fighter
Race: Sylvan
Player Status: Active
Location: SF Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by noivad » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:44 pm

I think making morphs take less time would cheapen them. As a new ranger, I look forward to sitting on a creature for months and months then one day hearing a familiar ding and being able to change into said creature. Getting the morph isn't hard, it just takes time. And encouraging people to play isn't a bad thing.

I don't plan on getting a morph for a while anyway, and if I do get one it should be a pretty awesome one so it'll take a long time... years. Now if Slarty or Tinker wanted to drop the requirement because it's discouraging play, I wouldn't object, but I think they're working as intended.
http://www.clanlord.net/
Org Du Lac's bestiary: http://bestiary.clanlord.net/index.html
Gil Galad’s Pirates http://pirates.clanlord.net/ & Ranger Studies: http://studies.clanlord.net/
?security warning:View cert•CL players assess valid by refs

User avatar
Salandra
Exile
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:02 pm
Profession: Mystic
Race: Thoom

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Salandra » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:46 pm

noivad wrote:And encouraging people to play isn't a bad thing.
Playing is one thing.. Grinding is another... I don't care about morphs one way or another but I do wanna point out that getting one isn't "playing" its "grinding" out 2000 last hits...
http://www.lfgcomic.com/
Help control your Mystic population. Bury all their trainers!

User avatar
noivad
Order of the White Elephant
Order of the White Elephant
Posts: 3327
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:04 pm
Profession: Fighter
Race: Sylvan
Player Status: Active
Location: SF Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by noivad » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:32 am

Salandra wrote:
noivad wrote:And encouraging people to play isn't a bad thing.
Playing is one thing.. Grinding is another... I don't care about morphs one way or another but I do wanna point out that getting one isn't "playing" its "grinding" out 2000 last hits...
Grinding is playing, just not at a particularly good time:reward ratio. At 1K lasties it's still grinding, just at a better ratio. What difference does it make if a person has to study a creature an extra month or two, when they're just going to go on and grind out another couple of thousand. So, instead of a person having 2 creature morphs they have 4.

Really it's just a mindset problem. If you look at it as work, then it's grinding. If you look at it as fun, then it's an adventure. 1K or 2K is just a numbers game at that point.

Ask me again when I get my first morph. I'll let you know if I thought it took too long. But with my emphasis not being morphs, you might have to wait a year or two. (That and it takes about 2-2.5 months for me to get 20 ranks. So, when I do decide to get a morph it'll take a bit more time.)
http://www.clanlord.net/
Org Du Lac's bestiary: http://bestiary.clanlord.net/index.html
Gil Galad’s Pirates http://pirates.clanlord.net/ & Ranger Studies: http://studies.clanlord.net/
?security warning:View cert•CL players assess valid by refs

User avatar
Torin
Order of the White Elephant
Order of the White Elephant
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:36 am
Profession: Champion
Race: Dwarf
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Torin » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:04 am

Let me point out that from a non-Ranger perspective, lastie requirements impose a cost on other fighters. They miss more tags than they otherwise would. Also, the group is more likely to get in trouble as it has to balance lasties with a fast kill rate for safety.

How about having 10 lasties to get you started on the road to a morph, and then switching to a point-based system that gives credit for any tag (but more for a lastie)? For example, after those first 10 lasties, you have to get 5,000 points. You get 4 points for a regular tag, 5 for a lastie, 6 for a solo. That way, lasties are preferred over regular tags and will get you the morph faster, but we don't have to put up with months of whining every time someone else gets the last hit. :P

User avatar
Merlisk
Sun Dragon Clan
Sun Dragon Clan
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Puddleby
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Merlisk » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:12 am

Daimoth wrote:Morphs are awesome, but too few Rangers are utilizing them. This is primarily because morphs take an absolutely unreasonable amount of time to obtain.

The obvious result of this is that the amount of time it takes to get any morph, even common ones, prohibits casual players and the time-restricted from being able to pursue them. However, this also makes it so even most regular players stick to the easy-to-get, cookie-cutterish morphs (CC, Haremau Kitten, Stinging Beetle.), rather than more interesting and obscure ones.

My suggestion is simple: Decrease the "lasty" requirement for morph and especially befriend substantially, which will encourage more Rangers to engage in the pure genius that is morph-questing, to do so with more regularity, and to get more unique morphs.
It seems reasonable to me that the first morph should easier than it is now but each successive one is harder. Likewise, instead of every high-level Ranger getting Movements on every family in the game, it would seem that increasing the cost for each subsequent family is likewise reasonable.

So, the first Movements, Befriend, and Morph would be easier than they are now, but each one after gets progressively harder for each family. This seems to be inline with allow Rangers to still be fun to play (I love mine!) but balancing them a bit more against the other classes.
Merlisk
Thoom Healer/Dentist
Sun Dragon Clan

User avatar
Maeght
Trainer
Posts: 5647
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:05 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Halfling
Player Status: Active
Location: University of Puddleby
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Maeght » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:21 am

Merlisk wrote: It seems reasonable to me that the first morph should easier than it is now but each successive one is harder. Likewise, instead of every high-level Ranger getting Movements on every family in the game, it would seem that increasing the cost for each subsequent family is likewise reasonable.

So, the first Movements, Befriend, and Morph would be easier than they are now, but each one after gets progressively harder for each family. This seems to be inline with allow Rangers to still be fun to play (I love mine!) but balancing them a bit more against the other classes.
Ranks are harder to come by as you advance, and the useful critters for your level take more time and help to kill. And except for those with both a fair amount of base Atkus and a lot of Goss, family movements don't let you hit the high end critters.

It would be nice if the cost to learn the morph and the cost to use it were proportional to the advantage the morph provides.

- Maeght

User avatar
Merlisk
Sun Dragon Clan
Sun Dragon Clan
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Puddleby
Contact:

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Merlisk » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:56 am

Maeght wrote:Ranks are harder to come by as you advance, and the useful critters for your level take more time and help to kill. And except for those with both a fair amount of base Atkus and a lot of Goss, family movements don't let you hit the high end critters.

It would be nice if the cost to learn the morph and the cost to use it were proportional to the advantage the morph provides.
I was talking to the lasties perspective not the ranks (see the original post that I quoted.) If the first Movements, Befriend, and Morph cost X,Y, and Z lasities to get, then the next one might be something like 1.1*X, 1.1*Y, and 1.1*Z. The next might require an additional 10%. Whatever. Plug in the perfect numbers here, as HGM used to say.
Merlisk
Thoom Healer/Dentist
Sun Dragon Clan

User avatar
Cinnamon
Sun Dragon Clan
Sun Dragon Clan
Posts: 6375
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:06 am

Re: Decrease the lasty req for Befriend/Morph.

Post by Cinnamon » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:12 am

Currently, by the time I get another useful morph (I've got GCP) my core ranks will make that morph a waste of time.
This sig pic removed by Vagile

Post Reply