Ranger Unstudy Option.

Polls, discussion and commentary on suggested issues.

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Good idea?

Good idea. Experimentation should be encouraged.
5
25%
Decent idea, but I'll post below on how it could be improved.
4
20%
Bad idea, and I'll post below on why.
7
35%
I'm a forum trolling ass who votes negatively for no apparent reason.
4
20%
 
Total votes: 20

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Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Daimoth » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:51 am

This suggestion would mostly benefit bad studies, or experimental studies. And therefore would primarily help new Rangers who are getting used to things and figure it out through experimentation. Experimentation which ends up hurting them in the future. Because of the game's severe lack of NPCs and in-game instructions to educate players, this is actually a rather common problem.


My suggestion is this, offer an option that allows a Ranger to unstudy a specific single learning for the cost of permanently losing a rank in Gossamer. If you want to unstudy more than one phase of learning, it would cost as many ranks as there are phases that are being unstudied.


For example, Relkin is tired of his retarded vermine morph since it's only useful in exploitive situations, like with poison, or drunkenness, or with the portal. He chooses to unstudy it entirely, which will free up how many Duvin it cost at the time. Which was 20 ranks, I presume (5 basic + 10 befriend + 5 morph.). The price of which is he permanently loses 3 ranks in Gossamer.

Another example, Nyla is well done sucking up her exp from sasquatch in valley and wants to put that Duvin to work in deeper areas of Metzetli. She chooses to unstudy her basic knowledge of Sasquatch, which she learned after Midnight Wendecka, which are of the same family. So she frees up the 4 Duvin cost (instead of 5, since it was her second study of that particular family, not the first.) for the cost of 1 rank of gossamer.


Obviously there would be diminishing usefulness to this ability, especially if you spend a lot of time within one family. The intent for which to enforce the philosophy that it's good to encourage experimentation, but to punish unintelligent overspecialization.


CL's a great game, but educating the playerbase isn't one of its strong points. GMs have made it clear that they want people to find things out on their own, but shouldn't we try to punish people a bit less? How about we encourage individual experimentation by diminishing the price people pay for doing just that? And allow people to replan their training route for an appropriate cost.
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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Fogtripper » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:04 am

The examples you give are not mistakes from experimentation, but rather a change of priorities over time.

There are plenty of things many would like to selectively untrain, which are not isolated to the rangers. I wish I knew more about the background mechanics of rangering to form more of a specific opinion of the idea.

I agree that lots of stuff is horribly instructed in-game, but being the first to experiment with something should have risk.

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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Gremlins » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:46 am

Fogtripper wrote:The examples you give are not mistakes from experimentation, but rather a change of priorities over time.
I will have to disagree here. 1 is a likely a mistake/experimentation, the other one a change of priorities.

Anyway, I honestly don't know if it would be a good or a bad idea (even if some of my studies are fairly useless by themselves, the family bonus that they bring can (or could whenever new critters appear) be useful). Why limiting that to studied critters since basically what you're after is mostly a specific untrainer (some healers are asking that for Awaria for how long now…)? In addition, if, that was ever implemented, I would only give back whatever would be the cost in Duvin studying that critter with all the other family members studied (ie, if you have 4 other monkeys in addition to the sas, I would give back only 1 duvin, even if all 4 others were studied after, and not the 5 or 4 you're suggesting).

I'm expecting this thread to degenerate in an endless rant on how rangers are overpowered and therefore will probably stop reading it very soon :roll:
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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Torin » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:25 am

Example 1 sounds like a mistake. Example 2 sounds like being unhappy with an essential part of the Ranger subclass: your expertise is tied to particular creatures, which won't always give you experience. It's pretty easy to see that you won't always be hunting Sas. The initial decision is based on (1) the idea that kicking Sas ass will be useful even after you no longer get experience from them, and/or (2) the accelerated rank gain during your Sas-hunting days is well worth tying up a few Duvin ranks permanently. So if there is any unstudy option, its penalty should take into account the fact that most studied creatures will have been rank fountains for a period of time.

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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by xepel » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:04 am

Torin wrote:So if there is any unstudy option, its penalty should take into account the fact that most studied creatures will have been rank fountains for a period of time.
Yes...

The idea is that people will use it for "mistake" studies. However, I find that while "young" rangers make some studying mistakes (I myself made at least two, maybe three studying "mistakes"), this would be used mostly by older rangers who have used their studies to get ahead, then (after they have gone past the usefulness of the study) unstudy to get back most ranks to reinvest in getting farther ahead on new stuff.

Now, I like having options for trying things out, because I hate the idea in CL of "try it, if you don't like it, oh well suck it up!" But the thing is that ranger studies are useful even when they're "mistakes," as they make it easier to learn the next creature of the family both because of the family bonus and because of the reduction in duvin cost. And besides, the total "cost" of those initial mistake studies is likely low - likely 10-15 at most before you realize that studying rats is not the best idea. And it moves lower if you learn other family members. (Example: Oops, I learned Island Panthers, pretty worthless. But now I study VC, VP, Kittens, and Ruds. Now my "mistake" only cost me one rank!) It's not like Awaria, where you can train 150+ ranks before you realize you've been training a scam. (Where's Unawaria, please?)

Befriend and Morph, however, are a different story. With the not-so-recent changes to how morphs work, people can easily end up getting morphs that are nothing more than just weaker costumes. Befriend also is one of those things that sounds pretty cool in theory, but more often than not is useless (because a befriended creature is so very dumb). For these, I'd endorse having some way to "unstudy" and get a number of your ranks back.

Or, of course, I'd love to have improvements to befriend/morph (firstly by making each next one in the family for both befriend and morph easier to learn in terms of duvin, just like studies work, secondly by making befriended creatures smarter, with being able to give commands). But this is a good idea anyway, at least for befriend and morphing. Studies I'm not so sure about, because the penalty is very little, and because I just see it as a way of burning through new stuff using less ranks, as you forget old studies to learn relevant new ones.
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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Lorikeet » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:36 am

I know a very recent ranger who indeed did make a mistake and use up duvin on creatures who were easy to one-hit. There's no warning anywhere, and if someone is reluctant to ask, they get screwed. I guess we should all be used to this by now.

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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Maeght » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:36 am

It's not hard for a beginning Ranger not to know which animals are grouped together in families, other than the immediately obvious. They also may not know which families don't have members at the mid to high end.

I think this would be pretty useful on a limited basis.

I say this when I'd probably benefit more than most.

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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by xepel » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:43 am

Lorikeet wrote:I guess we should all be used to this by now.
Such is the way of things. Can't tell the players/characters things, and punish them for their mistakes... when there is often no other way to find out about something.

Why punish those who are the first to try things? No wonder there are so many library trial/testing characters...
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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Super Chicken » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:16 am

By the way, TinkerGM implemented rangers so studies can't be untrained, at all. If a ranger has studies, and goes to untrain completely, he'll still have those studies trained. It was originally implemented to balance rangers I think, but nowadays does it still make sense? (not that i plan to untrain)
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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by xepel » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:24 am

Super Chicken wrote:By the way, TinkerGM implemented rangers so studies can't be untrained, at all. If a ranger has studies, and goes to untrain completely, he'll still have those studies trained. It was originally implemented to balance rangers I think, but nowadays does it still make sense? (not that i plan to untrain)
It makes sense simply because of the way untraining works. It shaves a little bit off the top of everything, over and over. How do you untrain "part" of a ranger study/befriend/morph? How do you untrain duvin if it's already 'allocated' to a certain creature?

This way is different, as you're actually picking and choosing what you are untraining.
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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Maeght » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:26 am

Super Chicken wrote:By the way, TinkerGM implemented rangers so studies can't be untrained, at all. If a ranger has studies, and goes to untrain completely, he'll still have those studies trained. It was originally implemented to balance rangers I think, but nowadays does it still make sense? (not that i plan to untrain)
Maybe not untrained generically, but if your studies are remembered by the world, they can be removed by the world.

Getting back the ranks for the vermine morph is tempting. :-)

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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Cinnamon » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:13 am

It should always come off the higest "tax bracket" of Duvin cost. If you have 10 critters in the family studied, you get the duvin back for the 10th critter trained. The sequence of studies should not come into play. Otherwise it's Duvin stockpiling.

I'd roll back close to a dozen critters. Just as an example of how much I would use it.
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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Sielk » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:55 pm

I have made only a single mistake and it was on the first critter I studied before I understood how everything worked. I studied GCP thinking it would help me kill them faster but later found out that it did not. I think it would be a good option to be able to unstudy. I do agree that there should be cost either in lost rank or duvin or something, not sure exactly. I would love to get back that wasted 5 duvin.

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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Tip'ii » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:33 pm

Pure mistakes (e.g. I wanted to study Baltoise, but GCP spawned after my "/use /study" and before I hit the toise -- and while killing to survive, I finished studies before I could type "/use /study /cancel giantcarnivorusplankton") -- should be able to be unlearned.

However, this could be horribly abused... example: Let's say I wanted to learn Green, Lime and Emerald Toks, but don't have nearly the atkus to hit them (which is why I want to study them!). First, I go to GI and study 5 wimpy, common snakes: Deadly Adders, Repens, Chami, etc. Second, I go study the Toks, with full family bonus (+200 atkus and +200 darkus for me). After I study all the Toks I want to keep, I go get a refund by unlearning the 5 snakes. (after that I go learn wimpy Wendies so I can do the same for Gloamings, etc)

Maybe, to avoid abuse, we could make it so only the most recent study could be rolled back. No goss rank cost though.

Personally, I made a few mistakes when I first started Rangering... I would say my studies of Deadly Crawler and T'rool were pretty worthless! Do I see other Rangers who have done a lot more efficient job of choosing studies? of course. good for them! I wish I was better, but I am who I am, I did what I wanted to do at the time, I will live with it. And, yea, I put 16 ranks into a low histia morph, and someday that might be nerfed for poison/drunkeness -- but I still don't think I deserve the ranks back.

Pure mistakes, especially caused by the clunky interface (like the GCP vs toise above), should have an unlearn.

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Re: Ranger Unstudy Option.

Post by Taryn » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:06 pm

Tip'ii wrote:Maybe, to avoid abuse, we could make it so only the most recent study could be rolled back.
I voted no, but I'm not opposed to this idea. Another way to provide a grace period on studies is to attach a "lock" flag to each study, increment all the lock flags every chaos storm, and if the lock flag > some number, disallow roll-back on that study.

The reason I voted no (since the poll asked) is because in both of Daimoth's examples, it sounded like the ranger got something out of their studies. That is, they didn't make a mistake -- they grew out of their studies. But that's an inherent drawback to the ranger class that balances its advantages.

And if there's going to be a trial period for studies, I'd like to see that for ALL studies, not just ranger studies. So ... this got me thinking. The only trial study the game provides is specialized weapons ranks, which decay. Which some complain don't decay fast enough, and others complain they cannot lock in. What if ALL training had two parts to it: the trial training, and the permanent training? The IC explanation is that new learning is quickly forgotten unless reinforced. Trial training would therefore decay reasonably fast, and there could be limits on how many trial ranks you could train in any specialty. Permanent training can only be up to the amount of undecayed ranks (can only reinforce what is not yet forgotten).

Example of how this would work. Respia invites me to try learning to improve my spirit recovery. I do so, and get introduced to the maximum of 50 additional lessons of faster spirit recovery, which I start forgetting. I then revisit Respia, turn down her first offer, at which point she then invites me to commit to understanding spirit recovery, and I accept. Now, when I earn a rank (whether from new experience or the decay of trial Respia), my spirit recovery permanently becomes better. I can continue training with "permanent" Respia as long as I have any undecayed ranks of "trial" Respia.

Some examples: people could try bracers without commiting to them. People could find out how much pathfinding and loovma is useful for them, before committing (and really see that increasing loovma does reduce chain breakage). High faustus healers could change their minds about sylphstone rings if trying it out turns out to be useless. Those nonsubclass fighters who want to lock in some of their special blade ranks, could. Those healers who are attracted to the promises of Awaria could evaluate the worth of her training before committing to it. And would-be fighters mislead by Fistus into training with Bodrus could just let those ranks be forgotten.

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