Increasing the SS group limit

Polls, discussion and commentary on suggested issues.

Moderators: Lorikeet, CL GMs

Move the NPC and drop rank requirement

Yes
28
88%
Maybe
1
3%
No
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32

User avatar
Fundin
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 2139
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:53 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Dwarf
Player Status: Active
Location: The Pub, the brewery or the floor.
Contact:

Increasing the SS group limit

Post by Fundin » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:43 am

Ok, i put a semi misleading title otherwise this could be a spoiler title. Anyway don't read on if you don't like knowing the tiniest things in CL don't read on. :twisted:





Based on this thread from the leadership rewards, i think the NPC trainer should be moved to somewhere less difficult and require less ranks to get an extra channel.
Lorikeet wrote:
Eldon wrote:
Taryn wrote: 1. Increasing the sungem group beyond 5. 10-12 would be nice. This has been at the top of my wish list for ages.

Taryn.

1. Done
Is this something new you have done, or are you referring to that strange trainer that's really tough to get to that you need Mentus to train? I think a few extra slots were added that way, but I don't think that's what Taryn had in mind.
The trainer is in the PC area. I was going to pickup Eldon on that anyway, because i think its a ridiculously hard to reach area to put a trainer allowing more ss slots, i mean this should be available to the general populace with a little work, not in one of CL hardest areas of which we don't even go anymore. If this is what Eldon is refering to it really should be moved somewhere less difficult imo (and i'm not alone in that think).

and
Yor wrote:
Taryn wrote:
Having a trainer that requires an elite group to reach isn't "making it available to everyone." Not done as far as I'm concerned.

Taryn.
Me too.

This trainer is in one of the most remote and well-protected snells in the entire CL world. From Orga Camp 1 it requires traveling through around 20-25 minimally to average danger snells, 3 heavy lightning-based chokepoint snells, and 9 web noid-packed snells. The portal in camp dred removes some of that but I'm ignoring that because this area was designed without the portal in mind and before it came into play. Oh and you'll also need a well-trained teleporting mystic with a strange stone, a large, strong, well-equipped group, and at least one pathfinder (although more would be better) that has more than 140 ranks of training. And finally, the trainer itself won't even recognize you unless you have at least 20 mentus. And even with 20 mentus 20 ranks from this trainer will only grant you *1* extra thinkgroup slot. ONE (for 40 ranks).

So that said, what's wrong with this picture? This kind of feature should be available to everybody and at a minimal rank cost.

It took alot of hard work and several failures for PAG to resch that trainer yet I have a feeling nobody in PAG would mind if that trainer suddenly appeared somewhere in town in some hut. It's collecting dust and being forgotten where it is now. Time to rectify this situation and make CL even better in a small way.

Yor
99 Bottles of Beer on the wall....
and 99 in my fridge :-D

------
CLAN LORD MAP REPOSITORY
Old maps, new maps, got any maps?
http://www.tidyup.co.uk/clanlord/site/index.html

User avatar
Daimoth
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 6180
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:29 pm
Profession: Destroyer of Worlds
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Post by Daimoth » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:05 am

It shouldn't require rank investment at all, in my opinion.

If this was really hard to get to but didn't cost ranks, and merely unlocked more sungem slots, then I'm totally fine with the location.

Shrug.

User avatar
Gorvin
Noble
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:45 pm
Profession: Champion
Race: Dwarf
Player Status: Active

Post by Gorvin » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:25 am

I may be a soul-less min-maxer, but you would really have to be completely out of your mind to want to spend ranks on this trainer, even if it were easily accessible. From what I've heard, it takes over 10 ranks with this trainer (in addition to the Mentus requirement) before you even get your first extra sungem slot. That is really a huge ripoff, especially considering you can just publicly broadcast when you want to send a message to a large group. I really think *any* rank cost is too much for this. Abilities like this should cost coins or items, if anything, not ranks.

User avatar
Fundin
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 2139
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:53 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Dwarf
Player Status: Active
Location: The Pub, the brewery or the floor.
Contact:

Post by Fundin » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:38 am

If i could pick its location it would be near town or in town. At the hardest it would be in the Mala caves certainly not the far end of the PCs.

As a leader i would be willing to invest 5 ranks for an extra slot, its very useful to be able to get 6 or even 7 people into a thinkgroup of a large team. General SSing just doesn't work when your discussing options etc. I think it should work as so.

1 extra slot 5
2 extra slots, 5 then 4
etc. up to 5 extra slots

All the think slot of 5 does is encourage us to use ICQ, chatrooms and things like teamspeex even more. Not really good for the RP element.

PS, please vote accordingly if you don't like the current situation :)
99 Bottles of Beer on the wall....
and 99 in my fridge :-D

------
CLAN LORD MAP REPOSITORY
Old maps, new maps, got any maps?
http://www.tidyup.co.uk/clanlord/site/index.html

Eldon
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 2869
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: Fairgrounds
Contact:

Post by Eldon » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:12 am

Daimoth wrote:It shouldn't require rank investment at all, in my opinion.

If this was really hard to get to but didn't cost ranks, and merely unlocked more sungem slots, then I'm totally fine with the location.

Shrug.
I disagree. I think it should cost ranks, be in town, and available only to Mystics. They are the communications class, after all. But, as you can tell, I didn't do it.
Eldon, a Clan Lord GM
Cinnamon wrote:I think you're one of the best GMs I've ever been frustrated with. 11 years & counting. I'm a loyal CL addict & you're a big part of why. For being willing to stick your chin out, many thanks.

User avatar
Kerrah
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 1342
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:25 am
Profession: Champion
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Inactive

Post by Kerrah » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:43 am

Eldon wrote:
Daimoth wrote:It shouldn't require rank investment at all, in my opinion.

If this was really hard to get to but didn't cost ranks, and merely unlocked more sungem slots, then I'm totally fine with the location.

Shrug.
I disagree. I think it should cost ranks, be in town, and available only to Mystics. They are the communications class, after all. But, as you can tell, I didn't do it.
I don't see why. From what I have heard, GMs typically frown on people using ICQ or other avenues to communicate, and having restrictions on the sunstones just frustrates people and encourages them to use OOC methods to communicate. Okay, *maybe* I can see merit in requiring people to train some Mentus to shorten the cool-down time between sunstone messages, but I don't see why Mystics should be the only ones to have the capability of messaging more than 5 people at once. And if it does cost ranks, I don't think that having to train 30 ranks just to get one extra sungem group slot is worthwhile. Making someone train a month (since a lot of people only get 1 rank a day) for something that should be a helpful communication device really sucks.

User avatar
Yor
Exile
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:28 pm

Post by Yor » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:10 am

Gorvin wrote:I may be a soul-less min-maxer, but you would really have to be completely out of your mind to want to spend ranks on this trainer, even if it were easily accessible. From what I've heard, it takes over 10 ranks with this trainer (in addition to the Mentus requirement) before you even get your first extra sungem slot. That is really a huge ripoff, especially considering you can just publicly broadcast when you want to send a message to a large group. I really think *any* rank cost is too much for this. Abilities like this should cost coins or items, if anything, not ranks.
I'm completely out of my mind. :)

Seriously, as you (Gorvin) probably know because I think you were there, I already had 20 mentus so I trained with this trainer. I was essentially one of the guinea pigs. The thing is I actually didn't expect much from this trainer from the beginning. But I did it anyways because I was curious and I'm not a mini-maxer (not that mini-maxing is a bad thing). At somewhere between 10-12 lessons I got my extra slot. I then continued to 20 lessons, hoping for a second extra slot. Nothing happened so I stopped.

I do use this extra slot on occasion but I have to agree with you. Knowing what we now know anybody would really have to be completely out of their mind to want to spend ranks on this trainer.

Of coarse it's a moot point because even if there's anybody out there who would be willing to spend ranks on this trainer they'll never get near it. Since the few guinea pigs tested it I haven't seen a single person, in PAG, guests of PAG, or not, ask to go there to get that training. It's really not a surprise.

So it's a very reasonable to say the sungem group-size limit hasn't been dealt with yet.

Yor

User avatar
Malkor
Fresh off the Boat
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:00 pm
Location: Puddleby

Post by Malkor » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:32 am

The training cost is a steal. The book should stay where it is, but its most avid readers should serve as proxies. Perhaps those well versed in the lessons of any book should be able to transcribe its pages with the appropriate materials.
PMF: Even we wish we were us.

User avatar
Drablak
Exile
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:58 pm
Profession: Mystic
Race: Thoom
Player Status: Spambot
Contact:

Post by Drablak » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:45 am

Eldon wrote:I think it should cost ranks, be in town, and available only to Mystics. They are the communications class, after all. But, as you can tell, I didn't do it.
I think it should be available to all, free for mystics, few ranks per slot for other classes and be not too far from town. Perhaps require a mini-quest.
Cinnamon wrote:The actual concept of an overpowered Mystic registers as an oxymoron.

Skirwan
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 2971
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:39 pm
Profession: Bloodmage
Race: Ghorak Zo
Player Status: Inactive
Location: SNN Planar News Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Skirwan » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:47 am

(The Clan Lord GMs stand around a table in a dimly lit room. Cigarette smoke swirls in the air above.)

Joe: "Our single big selling point is our community and ease of interaction... hey, let's impose silly artificial limits on in-game communication!"

Eldon: "We've done that for an awfully long time, it's getting boring..."

Ann: "I just had a brilliant idea! Let's add a feature that un-cripples in-game communication, and then dangle it tantilizingly just out of reach of all but the most committed players!"

Joe: "Ooh, I like it! That'll show 'em!"

Eldon: "Yeah, then when they complain about the limitations, we'll be able to point to the inaccessible feature and explain that it's their fault for not being able to get there!"

(Chum sips his martini.)

Chum: "We should make it so the new ability randomly breaks for no good reason."

Eldon: "That's getting old, why don't we just give it completely unreasonable upkeep costs?"

Chum: "Fine, but we should require mystics somehow, just to keep Michael pissed off."

Eldon: "Oh definitely!"

Chum: "But of course, it can't require mystics in a way that let mystics actually use it... that wouldn't suck enough."

Eldon: "Oh, let's require gobs of useless Mentus! I love requiring gobs of useless Mentus!"

Ann: "Good idea, and we can provide no notice at all that Mentus is required or that a larger amount of Mentus will let you do more, just like..."

Eldon: "Yeah!."

(Chum puts down his martini.)

Chum: "So was that a 'no' on breaking randomly?"



Next time, on Skirwan's Paranoid Sarcasm Theater:

(Loud scuffling noises from a nearby closet)

Eldon: "What was that?"

Ann: "Oh, it's just BloodmageGM. We locked him in the closet a few months ago... he tries to escape every now and then."

Eldon: "What? Why?!"

Chum: "Oh, because he was... Hrm."

Ann: "Because of the... no, that's not it..."

(Joe shrugs)

Joe: "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

(Chum nods approvingly at Joe)

Chum: "Yeah, it was really the right decision."

Joe: "Thanks!"
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

Mjollnir
Noble
Posts: 1039
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:11 am
Profession: Healer/Alchemist
Race: Sylvan
Player Status: Spambot
Contact:

Post by Mjollnir » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:53 am

Eldon wrote:
Daimoth wrote:It shouldn't require rank investment at all, in my opinion.

If this was really hard to get to but didn't cost ranks, and merely unlocked more sungem slots, then I'm totally fine with the location.

Shrug.
I disagree. I think it should cost ranks, be in town, and available only to Mystics. They are the communications class, after all. But, as you can tell, I didn't do it.
I thought mystics were the information class not communication, where did that come from?
A good pun is its own reword

Eldon
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 2869
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: Fairgrounds
Contact:

Post by Eldon » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:03 pm

Kerrah wrote:I don't see why. From what I have heard, GMs typically frown on people using ICQ or other avenues to communicate, and having restrictions on the sunstones just frustrates people and encourages them to use OOC methods to communicate. Okay, *maybe* I can see merit in requiring people to train some Mentus to shorten the cool-down time between sunstone messages, but I don't see why Mystics should be the only ones to have the capability of messaging more than 5 people at once. And if it does cost ranks, I don't think that having to train 30 ranks just to get one extra sungem group slot is worthwhile. Making someone train a month (since a lot of people only get 1 rank a day) for something that should be a helpful communication device really sucks.
Because that's what they're supposed to be all about?

I'd like to implement them as a relay system. They create a group of X individuals. You SS to them, perhaps with a keyword in the sunstone or perhaps only with a sungem, and they relay to all of the individuals.

There are many variations on this, but the idea is to put them as the hub of the communications, thereby allowing them to have some value-add in a hunt.

I find it somewhat disingenious for some players to ask/demand that Mystics get more useful skills then bawk when it actually might interfere with their getting the same skills. This isn't necessarily directed to you, of course. I don't remember your views on Mystic skills. :)
Eldon, a Clan Lord GM
Cinnamon wrote:I think you're one of the best GMs I've ever been frustrated with. 11 years & counting. I'm a loyal CL addict & you're a big part of why. For being willing to stick your chin out, many thanks.

Eldon
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 2869
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: Fairgrounds
Contact:

Post by Eldon » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:09 pm

Skirwan wrote:(The Clan Lord GMs stand around a table in a dimly lit room. Cigarette smoke swirls in the air above.
Very helpful post. There go the NPCs with your name.
Eldon, a Clan Lord GM
Cinnamon wrote:I think you're one of the best GMs I've ever been frustrated with. 11 years & counting. I'm a loyal CL addict & you're a big part of why. For being willing to stick your chin out, many thanks.

Taryn
Exile
Posts: 683
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 10:26 am
Location: Around

Post by Taryn » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:13 pm

Eldon wrote:I disagree. I think it should ... and available only to Mystics. They are the communications class, after all.
Leadership is a social skill. Communication tools are social tools. Mystics, from what I've seen, are encouraged to be anti-social. Knowledge class perhaps, but communication class? Ha. Mystics are supposed to be uncommunicative, remember? Hunts are the most common social activity. And I've been told more than once by mystics that hunts aren't that much fun for them. While I wouldn't go so far as to *exclude* mystics from having access to better communication tools, they don't need them as much as the others of us do. And rescues might need them more than hunts: rescuers are faced with answering people concerned about the fallens, with trying to gather people to a rescue, who may be coming at different times, and with staying in touch with the fallens, who may sometimes depart if they don't think progress is being made fast enough, all while trying to do the rescue itself, which may require toggle-locating. Outside of the rat towers, the typical "mystic" rescuer is one who sits in town center merely announcing that so-and-so is fallen. They aren't even maximizing the communication assets they have. Simply compare how much I use the sungem's group ability to how much ANY mystic does.

You're making the same mistake as thinking that leadership tools should be available only to Champions. You're trying to impose a social organization against what exists, and discourage people from freely choosing a social arrangement that is comfortable for them.

I really appreciate the sungem when part of a small group. But there's an adverse impact with larger groups. Did anyone consider what happens to the social dynamic when someone has to be left out?

Taryn.

Azriel
Exile
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:56 am
Location: US, NC
Contact:

Post by Azriel » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:18 pm

Yor wrote:
Gorvin wrote:I may be a soul-less min-maxer, but you would really have to be completely out of your mind to want to spend ranks on this trainer, even if it were easily accessible. From what I've heard, it takes over 10 ranks with this trainer (in addition to the Mentus requirement) before you even get your first extra sungem slot. That is really a huge ripoff, especially considering you can just publicly broadcast when you want to send a message to a large group. I really think *any* rank cost is too much for this. Abilities like this should cost coins or items, if anything, not ranks.
I'm completely out of my mind. :)

Seriously, as you (Gorvin) probably know because I think you were there, I already had 20 mentus so I trained with this trainer. I was essentially one of the guinea pigs. The thing is I actually didn't expect much from this trainer from the beginning. But I did it anyways because I was curious and I'm not a mini-maxer (not that mini-maxing is a bad thing). At somewhere between 10-12 lessons I got my extra slot. I then continued to 20 lessons, hoping for a second extra slot. Nothing happened so I stopped.

I do use this extra slot on occasion but I have to agree with you. Knowing what we now know anybody would really have to be completely out of their mind to want to spend ranks on this trainer.

Of coarse it's a moot point because even if there's anybody out there who would be willing to spend ranks on this trainer they'll never get near it. Since the few guinea pigs tested it I haven't seen a single person, in PAG, guests of PAG, or not, ask to go there to get that training. It's really not a surprise.

So it's a very reasonable to say the sungem group-size limit hasn't been dealt with yet.

Yor
I also started training with this Book when it was newly found deep in the Pitch caves and we didn't know what it did. At the time we were hoping it was a pathfinding booster/further pf training enabler. By the time the result of this training was understood, I had my 6th thinkgroup slot (at 11 lessons). I still have 6 slots after finishing chapter 1 at 20 lessons. Having that much invested in it, I'll throw good money after bad and train the two more lessons it (likely) takes to get a 7th slot -- if I get the chance (PAG has no reason to go here anymore). But that's it. Even in large PAG hunts, I don't feel I'd need more than 7 thinkgroup members, although I do appreciate having more than 5. But I'm not really a hunt leader/organizer, and I can see that folks like CJ (and many others - who have almost no chance to train this skill) might want even more. They are unlikely to get to, unless the new blue spirit potion is hell-on-wheels enough to convince PAG or others to seek new Azure Spores and so pass near this trainer again. My money is on "unlikely". It's a shame really.

Az
Last edited by Azriel on Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
HGM: "To be honest, keeping folks who've been playing for 3+ yrs happy for another 3 yrs -- while it'd be nice -- isn't a top priority."

Post Reply