Increasing the SS group limit

Polls, discussion and commentary on suggested issues.

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Move the NPC and drop rank requirement

Yes
28
88%
Maybe
1
3%
No
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32

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Zephyrus
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Post by Zephyrus » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:41 pm

Kani wrote:
Taryn wrote:
Eldon wrote:...introducing more communication tools will be a balancing act between what should rightfully be given to Mystics and what should be deemed a social tool and made available to everyone.
A communications "boost." Temporary in duration (but longer than current mystic boosts), affects all sungems in a range, proportionally adds slots according to how many are sharing the boosting mystic (so larger groups will get more slots). This would make mystics providers of communication skills, consistent with their being providers of sunstones and upgrades (and not being the sunstones/upgrades themselves).
This idea has a lot of merit, and in my mind would couple itself well with giving Mystics extra slots without needing the boost. Mystics would always have the communication advantage, and would optionally be able to share it with others.
Would I be asking for too much if I suggested that the boost also allow for extra share slots? That'd be pretty cool...

Oh, and I agree with most everything Taryn has said. I fail to see why a mystic would have fun if they got to /thinkgroup to more people. Best case scenario you get one use a macro that just repeats what people tell them to. Boring. The problem is that you're giving mystics tools to spread information before you give them informatin. Maybe if they could predict spawns, or something that would make it useful for a mystic to immediately inform 15 people to circle up or face impending doom... that could be fun.
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noivad
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Post by noivad » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:02 pm

There's good reason to give comm tools to mystics. But you don't have to make it an either/or thing. You could simply make it more accessible to mystics: pop a copy of the book in the mystic hall, and gie them more bang fo the buck in training it. Instead of 10 per added thinkgroup member, make it 5, etc.

I might make sense for some things IC to be found far out, but it'd also make sense if exiles were allowed to work towards making things more accessible. there's nothing saying a mystic couldn't copy the pages (one per trip, or one per each piece of paper they carry) and put the reproduction on display.

Oh BTW: I think it's funny a that mystics are now a communication class, considering their restrictions on what they can talk about. That's like the "department of defense," and the "central intelligence agency."
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Kani
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Post by Kani » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 am

noivad wrote:Oh BTW: I think it's funny a that mystics are now a communication class, considering their restrictions on what they can talk about. That's like the "department of defense," and the "central intelligence agency."
Being the communication class comes as a result of their other associations. Mystics are the information class. Mystics are the sun class. Mystics tune sunstones. Sunstones are the most popular tool, barring mouths, for spreading information.

...but even if Mystics were not involved in the sunstone trade, it would be natural for them to be the communication class. In a social environment, which Puddleby is, communication is intrinsic to the flow of information. Which brings us back to Point A.
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Post by Slartibartfast » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:38 am

As far as I'm concerned this is wide open to change. I don't speak for the other GMs, but I think the current costs are prohibitive. If something changes, you will be told.

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Post by xepel » Sun May 27, 2007 1:53 pm

Half a year later, nothing has changed. Expanding the SS group limit is still outrageously expensive, and waaaay too hard to get to.

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Re: Increasing the SS group limit

Post by Taryn » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:41 am

xepel wrote:Half a year later, nothing has changed. Expanding the SS group limit is still outrageously expensive, and waaaay too hard to get to.
I've visited this trainer 3 times now, and will have 12 ss slots when I train more Mentus.

For those who want to know the cost:
for healers, it's 8 ranks with this trainer + 15 ranks of Mentus per extra slot

You can only train up to 21 ranks with this trainer per visit, so for one visit, that's 2 extra slots with 30 Mentus. For two visits, that's 5 slots (42/8) with 75 Mentus. I thought to stay at that, but as I dislike excluding people from my group when leading, recently I trained again with another visit, so after three visits I'll have 7 slots (63/8 rounded down) with 105 Mentus.

It's very expensive, and I don't recommend it to anyone, except maybe mystics. Apparently the cost in ranks of this trainer per extra slot varies, according to class. For fighters, it appears to be 11. For mystics, it appears to be less than 8, and they'll already have the Mentus.

So for fighters, 1 visit would allow 1 extra slot (21/11 rounded down) with 15 Mentus. 2 visits would allow 3 extra slots (42/11 rounded down) with 45 Mentus.

I still think both the cost and the location are prohibitive. I'm only training it because pretty much extra ranks in healing are marginally useful for me now. I doubt even top-level fighters would say that, because harder areas still have creatures harder to hit, harder to brick, take more to kill, and hit back harder.

At this point, I'm not suggesting moving the trainer, or changing the requirements. Instead, I suggest offering one or two other ways to increase ss slots.

#1: mystic "boost" -- a mystic would have the ability to increase temporarily the number of ss slots of others. "Temporary" could be like the ethereal items, i.e. assuredly longer than any hunt would take. The "boost" could either target a single person (the leader), or a group within a range (like boosts work now).

#2: create quests to find sunstone gems, which would be rare drops in different locations. For example, onyx gem in the pitch caves. The gem would then have to be attached to the sungem by a mystic (with the ability to do so). Each different gem would add a new slot.

This would encourage people to visit different parts of the world, not just the same places over and over. It would also scale the acquisition of new slots: a younger group could get 1-2 different gems from less difficult areas, and more advanced groups could get different gems from harder areas. The group would choose who would get the gem, presumably the leader, unless they already have one such.

Both of these suggestions also encourage mystic involvement, without making mystics the target class of the enhancement. For, the people who need this are leaders, and mystics don't lead groups. Fighters lead most groups, and sometimes healers. The existence of this trainer and it's advantage for mystics hasn't changed that.

Also, both of these ways allow NEWER and YOUNGER leaders to get more ss slots. It would therefore encourage NEWER leadership. By the time anyone gets to the current trainer with a group of their peers, a leader will have already worked out some other way to communicate to their group, the most obvious being public ss'ing.

I recommend adding both of these (or some variant). Having three ways to get extra slots is a good thing. And it could be that the added gems would eventually break (just as sunstones, armor, and chains do) and need to be replaced. This would mean that the current trainer would be the only way to add slots permanently.

Introducing sungems to ss to a private group was a great idea. Expanding it in a non-prohibitive way would make it even better.

Taryn.

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Re: Increasing the SS group limit

Post by Azriel » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:09 am

Taryn wrote:For those who want to know the cost:
for healers, it's 8 ranks with this trainer + 15 ranks of Mentus per extra slot
Taryn wrote: So for fighters, 1 visit would allow 1 extra slot (21/11 rounded down) with 15 Mentus. 2 visits would allow 3 extra slots (42/11 rounded down) with 45 Mentus.
As one of the original group to discover this training book and to train it before we knew what it actually did for us, I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with this training.

Finding this book as we did, deep underground after at long-last discovering pathfinding Book 2 and openning another section of the pitch/slate caves, we all initially thought it would be related to pathfinding and jumped at the chance to train. Curiously, only folks with 15 or more Mentus were able to train at all. Talking about it, it was clear that Mentus was a threshold to train with the book at all. Furthermore, Mystics (with a lot of Mentus) gained each extra slot with far fewer book lessons than did the rest of us, but it seemed that folks with higher Mentus were also more efficient in earning extra slots (I think it was J'jh who had pretty high Mentus, got each slot at 8 instead of 11 lessons). So we thought that Mentus reduced the number of lessons needed per slot. Since I used the CD portal a lot in those days, I had Mentus already, and I trained. One "chapter" was 21 ranks, and I trained it all hoping for some kind of pathfinding assistance, and for that I received one extra Sungem thinkslot, at 11 lessons. Never did help with PF.

I have long felt that I had the single most rank-expensive thinkslot in the world at 21 Janis lessons, and that training one extra Janis lesson (to 22 total = 2x 11) would give me that 7th slot.

So I recently joined a Taryn group to visit Master Janis' book once again and started training. No 7th slot at 22 lessons. Maybe I miscounted and it took 12 originally? So train to 24. No 7th slot at 24 lessons.

I now know I most certainly have the single most rank-expensive thinkslot in the world, since I still have only 1 extra slot (#6) at 31 lessons in the book.

Totally confused by this turn of events, I have been speaking to folks about this training recently to figure out wtf. Lov'sya and Taryn were particularly helpful. Taryn in particular has a lot of Mentus compared to typical non-mystics and got an extra slot with 8 lessons, consistent with the idea that higher Mentus facilitates slot efficiency. Taryn also found that her slot number increased upon training even more Mentus later, as her already-trained Janis lessons could now be used more efficiently. So one model for how this works is that Mentus acts as both a threshold gate ("You must be this thoughtful to train") and as an efficiency factor (dumb fighter with 20 Mentus needs 11 lessons per slot, healer with excessive Mentus in to 50+ range needs only 8 lessons, and Mystics with hundreds of Mentus need even fewer). Fair enough, train enough Mentus to maximize your desired slots.

But this Mentus efficiency theory appears to be incorrect.

Instead, each profession appears to have an inborn difference in how many ranks they need per thinkslot, and since I have been told the book is indeed capped at 3 chapters, each profession also has distinct limits on how many total thinkslots they can have, with fighters least and mystics by far the most. Worse, Mentus ranks are required directly for EACH thinkslot (think of it as Duvin, working behind the scenes), with, according to Taryn's observations, 15 Mentus needed for each thinkslot in addition to some number (up to 11) of direct Janis lessons. It is even worse than requiring 1 Mentus :1 book per slot! The Book itself says nothing about this; we are left to surmise it. I picked the wrong model for how this works, based on incomplete information, and have paid a silly price. The system also appears to be inherently biased against fighters by costing more ranks than other professions, and I expect it is capped at a lower slot number too - assuming all professions have the same book lesson cap. In the absence of some obvious benefit to direct Mentus training (like the 20 lesson immunity using the cloud portals), I will never train more Mentus, and certainly not 10 or 25 more. So, I will remain at 6 thinkslots with 20 wasted Janis ranks, whee.

If I am incorrect, I'd love for a GM to say so, to sort out why I cannot get that 7th slot after training substantially more with this book.

TL;DR Do not train with Master Janis' book for extra sungem thinkslots, unless you are a Mystic who thinks a lot. It costs 15 Mentus plus 8 (healer) or 11 (fighter) Janis' book lessons PER SLOT. If you aspire to be a fighter or healer Adventure Organizer, don't expect to enhance your Sungem groupthinking skills using this mechanism unless you simply could care less about rank advancement.

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Re: Increasing the SS group limit

Post by Chmee » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:24 pm

Hm. Interesting. I like Taryn's ideas. Here's our experience:

Sunoril has 21 lessons (1 chapter) with the book, and 35 Mentus. He had 30, which gives him two sungem slots, and is currently training Mentus to 45. Then he'll go for the second chapter of the book (21 more lessons?) which should give him more than enough for five slots. Along the way, he'll try to remember to note at what point he picks up his third, fourth, and fifth slots.

Chmee has just recently finished the second chapter of the book. The first chapter gave him 23 ranks (!) and two slots. The second gave him 21 more ranks, for a total of 44. That should be enough for 4 slots, once he gets another 30 mentus (he has 30 now, and if he remembers aright, had 30 when he started the first chapter). He currently plans one more trip, as he expects to need 55 lessons total for five slots. It seems wasteful to go beyond that, as completing the third chapter would give him 65 lessons, not enough for a sixth slot.

Wayfarer has 687 lessons with Master Mentus, but no book training. It will be interesting to see how that goes, once he gets to the book.
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Re: Increasing the SS group limit

Post by Taryn » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:47 am

Unfortunately for me, this trainer is capped at 50 ranks (at least for healers). I wanted to be able to have a group-size of 12, but am stuck at 11.

Assuming I've the right formula, mystics would be capped at a group-size of 17, and fighters at a group-size of 9, with 2-6 wasted ranks if at the cap (depending on profession).

Taryn.
Taryn wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:41 am

I've visited this trainer 3 times now, and will have 12 ss slots when I train more Mentus.

For those who want to know the cost:
for healers, it's 8 ranks with this trainer + 15 ranks of Mentus per extra slot

You can only train up to 21 ranks with this trainer per visit, so for one visit, that's 2 extra slots with 30 Mentus. For two visits, that's 5 slots (42/8) with 75 Mentus. I thought to stay at that, but as I dislike excluding people from my group when leading, recently I trained again with another visit, so after three visits I'll have 7 slots (63/8 rounded down) with 105 Mentus.

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Re: Increasing the SS group limit

Post by Chmee » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:07 pm

I guess you got a "you can't train anymore" message of some kind at 50 ranks. Have you been back to the book since then?
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