The "Observation Staff" for healers

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Destian
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The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Destian » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:16 am

Experience in Clan Lord is centered around the idea that we better learn how to fight monsters to improve ourselves. In the CL manual, sharing is described as sending information to others about how to fight the aforementioned monsters.

As this information is apparently valuable to healers (since that's how they gain experience), I'd like to see an offhand item that allows a healer to "observe" a chosen fighter, causing the healer to intently observe that fighter and how they kill monsters. It could be a staff, charm, or coffee cup just as long as it serves the following function...

With a healer observing a fighter (in the same snell, of course), the game would treat that fighter as the healer's "pet". As with pets, anything the fighter tags, the healer would count as tagging as well (I'm hoping some serious code reusage from the pet code could happen here, but with CL's brittle code base, who knows... :\ ).

And as with pets, these proxy tags would not generate share experience, thus preventing any exploits.

It could have a rank cap on it, but I wouldn't at all mind if it didn't have a rank cap: It was fairly depressing to learn that a fighter who has more ranks than me gets ~3 ranks on a BP hunt while I'm lucky to get one (plus the exp gain from it would drop off at the appropriate time due to the naturally higher slaughter rate for healers). This massive gap in exp gain as a healer vs. that of a fighter means trying to catch up is futile, which in turn makes me want to play my healer less (and I KNOW I'm not alone in this regard).

With the ability to "observe" fighters, young healers could gain experience from playing like healers (instead of tagging or trying to tag) and would have a REAL means of progressing to community level instead of just baking in the library for a year or so.
Last edited by Destian on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Kalian » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:18 am

This is an awesome idea!

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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Leinis » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:36 pm

I had an idea like this awhile ago. Except instead of making it an item, it was through shares. And I think I suggested that the experience gained by the healer was limited by the slaughter of the fighter as well as the slaughter of the healer. The idea being that it would make little sense for a high level fighter to slaughter their way through a mid level area and letting a low level healer get experience from that. For example, if Daimoth slaughtered a Haremau, why should that count as a vanquish for a low level healer?

Here's what has been previously discussed about this idea: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6004
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Fafnir » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:42 pm


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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Destian » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:10 pm

Leinis wrote:I had an idea like this awhile ago. Except instead of making it an item, it was through shares. And I think I suggested that the experience gained by the healer was limited by the slaughter of the fighter as well as the slaughter of the healer. The idea being that it would make little sense for a high level fighter to slaughter their way through a mid level area and letting a low level healer get experience from that. For example, if Daimoth slaughtered a Haremau, why should that count as a vanquish for a low level healer?

Here's what has been previously discussed about this idea: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6004
Yeah, I was thinking about it and the fighter should have to be gaining experience as well.

This suggestion is sort of like giving healers the ability to have a 100% exp share from one fighter, except that slaughter rate still applies for the healer as well as the fighter.
Fafnir wrote:Have a look at this page:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/0 ... ore-376005
Sounds interesting, but I'm unclear as to how it relates to the suggestion...
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Krane » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:26 am

I keep thinking chests are an easy (and actually tested in many places) and better way to splash exp

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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Destian » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:11 pm

Krane wrote:I keep thinking chests are an easy (and actually tested in many places) and better way to splash exp
My guess is that it would wind up cancelling itself out, or just be too much of a PITA for them to want to bother.

For example, if you make a monster always drop a chest, it would mean that they'd need to nerf the exp reward from actually killing it to compensate, which in turn means there would be less share exp from the fighters that tagged.

Also, they'd need to adjust the exp of a lot of monsters. It'd probably be easier to make healers able to temporarily make a fighter count as tagging for them.
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Whirl wind » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:24 am

It could have a rank cap on it, but I wouldn't at all mind if it didn't have a rank cap: It was fairly depressing to learn that a fighter who has more ranks than me gets ~3 ranks on a BP hunt while I'm lucky to get one (plus the exp gain from it would drop off at the appropriate time due to the naturally higher slaughter rate for healers). This massive gap in exp gain as a healer vs. that of a fighter means trying to catch up is futile, which in turn makes me want to play my healer less (and I KNOW I'm not alone in this regard).

With the ability to "observe" fighters, young healers could gain experience from playing like healers (instead of tagging or trying to tag) and would have a REAL means of progressing to community level instead of just baking in the library for a year or so.

*cries*


I think this is an interesting idea. Even if not having an actual item attached and more like a command of the /observe blahblah and/or having some verbal agreement between you and the fighter (think the asking a player to train you that whole "i accept blank as my teacher") that way it doesnt allow you to just flick from fighter to fighter as a way of maybe offsetting the perks (cause we like nerfing in this game) would work just as well and might be more of a natural IC approach since observing is sort of a personal decision rather than an item based thing unless it was like a notebook to "write" down what you learn.

Nice suggestion
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Destian » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:43 pm

Whirl wind wrote:I think this is an interesting idea. Even if not having an actual item attached and more like a command of the /observe blahblah and/or having some verbal agreement between you and the fighter (think the asking a player to train you that whole "i accept blank as my teacher") that way it doesnt allow you to just flick from fighter to fighter as a way of maybe offsetting the perks (cause we like nerfing in this game) would work just as well and might be more of a natural IC approach since observing is sort of a personal decision rather than an item based thing unless it was like a notebook to "write" down what you learn.

Nice suggestion
Glad you like it. :)

And yeah, it would be fine with a verbal agreement sort of thing as well. Not like we need another item to carry around...
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Krane » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:06 am

Sorry but after some more thinking, I'm not too found of that idea.
Mainly because once again it relies on an exp flow out of fighting abilities. Means Fighter centric, Kill centric or tag centric.... To solve a non fighting profession exp gain issue.

Why can't a group of healer/mystic/whatever achieve something and get rewarded even without fighting.


Maybe it's ok as a tactical adjustment but not as a Target solution

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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Destian » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:04 am

Krane wrote:Why can't a group of healer/mystic/whatever achieve something and get rewarded even without fighting.
The massive majority of exp earned outside the library comes from killing things, though. Changing that would require a complete overhaul of the game.
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Talin » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:29 am

The only instance I would find it useful is as a means to even out the fact that healers, and mystics in small groups get way less experience, than in larger groups. For that it would be one heck of an elegant solution, e.g. less than 3 fighters in snell sharing -> follow one as you describe. But I doubt that is what we call "politically doable" in my language. Meaning, that would probably be down-voted by those healers who hunt in the larger groups, usually.

Apart of that instance, I have to say, healers need way less ranks to hunt the same areas than fighters highly effectively. I actually find that aspect of the game pretty well balanced. So I am not exactly sure why faster ranking should be the mend-it-all for healers. Except you want completely OP healers so that everyone needs way less of them on their hunts. Or that the exp per rank for the healer is reduced. I am completely for experience boosts for young healers, but for mid- and oldbies, not really.

I wonder at times whether it is not rather appreciation, and a sense of achievement, that the healers lack. A "pay-raise" alone so to speak will not solve that. The message of CL to the healers will still be: "second rate citizen". As it was discussed years ago, already.
Destian wrote:
Krane wrote:Why can't a group of healer/mystic/whatever achieve something and get rewarded even without fighting.
The massive majority of exp earned outside the library comes from killing things, though. Changing that would require a complete overhaul of the game.
Krane did not speak of replacing the old system, I believe, but of tasks/quests whatever of unspecified size. I can assure you that several quite fun quests are already in the game. Applying a "you gain experience" for a certain outcome should not be a complete overhaul of the game. Neither is adding more of those.

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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Destian » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:34 am

Talin wrote:Except you want completely OP healers so that everyone needs way less of them on their hunts. Or that the exp per rank for the healer is reduced. I am completely for experience boosts for young healers, but for mid- and oldbies, not really.
Slaughter rate would prevent this from being an issue, though, as most midbie/oldbie healers already slaughter everything on most modern hunts.
I wonder at times whether it is not rather appreciation, and a sense of achievement, that the healers lack. A "pay-raise" alone so to speak will not solve that. The message of CL to the healers will still be: "second rate citizen". As it was discussed years ago, already.
One of CL's bigger issues is actually that all of the goals players set for themselves take an egregiously long time to achieve, especially when compared to most modern games (or even games that were out when CL was released).

That's a preference of style so it's not fair to call it "wrong", and the library exists to ensure that players are working toward these goals even while logged off (I think one of the reasons rangers are so popular is because they have tangible goals that involve being outside the library).

But the problem for me at least is that no matter how often I clan, I never feel like I'm actually catching up to anyone, ever.

Fighters have static goals, usually things like "Be able to solo a _____", or even hit one reliably. Healers don't have these goals, unless the goal is "Be hit by a ____ and be able to self heal quickly enough to stay alive indefinitely" and that's not something many healers can do on modern hunts (especially non-oldbies).

One of the reasons I enjoyed training Skea was because it allowed me to set an attainable goal: being able to reliably skin creatures in BP.

So for me, as a ~6th circle healer, the only goal I have is "Suck a little bit less at being a healer on modern hunts".

I don't know if more ranks would actually fix this, but having a chance of keeping up with modern fighters would make it feel more worthwhile to log in.
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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Osito » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:01 pm

Destian wrote: But the problem for me at least is that no matter how often I clan, I never feel like I'm actually catching up to anyone, ever.

Fighters have static goals, usually things like "Be able to solo a _____", or even hit one reliably. Healers don't have these goals, unless the goal is "Be hit by a ____ and be able to self heal quickly enough to stay alive indefinitely" and that's not something many healers can do on modern hunts (especially non-oldbies).

One of the reasons I enjoyed training Skea was because it allowed me to set an attainable goal: being able to reliably skin creatures in BP.

So for me, as a ~6th circle healer, the only goal I have is "Suck a little bit less at being a healer on modern hunts".

I don't know if more ranks would actually fix this, but having a chance of keeping up with modern fighters would make it feel more worthwhile to log in.
First off, I really like this idea. I think that healers deserve more exp in smaller groups where there is one healer and 1-2 fighters. Being able to observe one of the fighters would make these little groups more worthwhile for healers to participate in when very few people are clanning.

I also think goals of any kind are a huge plus and would bring me out of the library more.

But in regards to "catching up" or "sucking a little bit less" I am finding that I disagree. There are countless people who have put in loads of hours and are much stronger than me. A few years ago I used to envy them and wish I was as strong as them. Today I am finding that I enjoy being an average healer, and being able to contribute to hunts anyway. I've also noticed that there is a reason fighters rank faster than healers. Groups that are full of strong fighters make quick work of difficult content even if the group is being healed by 2-3 healers. In the grand scheme of things, healers just aren't the main attraction. Yes we are necessary for hunts to happen but fighters are the deciding factor of whether or not a group is successful. I think one of the things a person needs to decide when choosing a class is: "Do I want the lead in the play or am I comfortable working behind the scenes?"

All that being said, super strong healers are necessary where groups have a large difference in fighter rank totals. Otherwise low rank fighters would slow down groups drastically. I'm okay with the fact I'm not one of those healers but I'm thankful other healers have invested massive amounts of time to make those hunts go.

So from a fellow mediocre healer, I have a hard time believing your strength as the reasoning behind whether or not you decide to log in. I think the lack of goals, quests, and noticeable progress could all be why myself, you, and many other healers don't log in much anymore.

edit: Realized Talin already basically said most of what I wrote, oops!

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Re: The "Observation Staff" for healers

Post by Destian » Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:43 pm

Osito wrote:So from a fellow mediocre healer, I have a hard time believing your strength as the reasoning behind whether or not you decide to log in. I think the lack of goals, quests, and noticeable progress could all be why myself, you, and many other healers don't log in much anymore.
Neither one helps, but you're right: even if I were stronger, there's little reason for me to log in during any non-scheduled hunt time (and as I've said in the other thread, the exp gained from a hunt through shares is usually not enough to entice me to log in, even if my schedule permits it).
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