Horus represents a bad game mechanic

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Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Grok » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:03 pm

Horus is a bad game mechanic and should be reworked or removed.

Hunts should end when people are ready for the hunts to end or a full group wipe; ending hunts because a player's character is unable to continue is lame and discourages parties low on horus from hunting places where characters may fall. It also means that healers invest tons of ranks into an attribute that has 0 effect on gameplay outside of its own insular mechanic. It's an ability that exists only to solve it's own problem and is silly.

My suggestion is Kill horus, give healers those ranks back and let them invest in things that make healing cool.

or

Do something fun with Horus, make it so that it revives fallen to an amount of their health based on the horus of the healers.

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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Daimoth » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:19 pm

Agree 100%. Not being able to rez someone is a hunt inhibitor. We have enough of those
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Ayella » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:04 pm

Mehan supports this thread.
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Shakyamuni » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:47 pm

I agree.. I am not sure though about folks like Lorikeet who have invested very heavily in said ranks. I also will say that coming back after a long absence I do feel a bit out of sorts because what use to be "okay"-ish at 100 ranks Horus is now not even close.. Most of the time I am left needing a second healer or a salve.
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Destian » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:44 am

I never liked Horus either. It's just one more on a long list of trainers healers "need" and healer ranks come slow as molasses in January.

Make it do things like negate "res stun" and raise fallens faster if they're going to do something else with it.
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by noivad » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:33 am

Shakyamuni wrote:I agree.. I am not sure though about folks like Lorikeet who have invested very heavily in said ranks. I also will say that coming back after a long absence I do feel a bit out of sorts because what use to be "okay"-ish at 100 ranks Horus is now not even close.. Most of the time I am left needing a second healer or a salve.

If they did remove horus, then I would refund all horus ranks and let those specialists reassign them, so they could pivot to another specialty or simple become stronger overall. Specialists like Lori would suddenly be able become extremely strong, and might like the option. But I’m not Lori nor other specialists, so their & other healer’s feedback on the idea should be sought before advancing the idea.

I just asked Thoomilicious, and he said, “it sounds seksi” whatever that means?

The only downside is that it would make reckless behavior* have less of an impact. So, perhaps negative histia cap (with horus over the cap being refunded full) would be a more moderate solution. I think prior cap description saying “Exile is nearing death” would be a logical cap: >1000 but less than messages beyond ND. It would discourage reckless actions, but also make a person healable with a healer at the cap or several healers who combine to hit the cap.

*Some people get ND on their own and some thanks to others’ action, so it would still discourage party members acting stupid too.
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Destian » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:50 am

noivad wrote:The only downside is that it would make reckless behavior* have less of an impact. So, perhaps negative histia cap (with horus over the cap being refunded full) would be a more moderate solution. I think prior cap description saying “Exile is nearing death” would be a logical cap: >1000 but less than messages beyond ND. It would discourage reckless actions, but also make a person healable with a healer at the cap or several healers who combine to hit the cap.

*Some people get ND on their own and some thanks to others’ action, so it would still discourage party members acting stupid too.
I guess it depends upon what they're doing.

Horus becomes an issue most often when someone takes a strong hit on red, and that hit on red could be due to any number of factors that aren't related to the victim being reckless (usually a sudden large spawn will make this happen).

This also means that a hunt can be ended prematurely through no fault of the players.

Horus is also unfortunately just one more trainer healers "need" to be effective. For comparison, imagine fighters needing a certain number of ranks in a special trainer to hit any monster that has more than X health, and this would be in addition to Atkus requirements to hit the same monster. Also, this trainer would do absolutely nothing to aid in all of a fighter's other capabilities.

The other problem with Horus is that it's a trainer that's negated by library healers who have just trained tons of Horus.

I can understand wanting "how dead" people are to be of some consequence as a game mechanic, but it ends hunts when hunts are hard enough to start in the first place.

Maybe increase the amount of time it takes to raise someone without Horus, then make Horus decrease that time, as well as reduce or remove the "raise stun" with enough ranks of it.

That way, there's still a downside to being reckless (taking forever to raise), but hunts won't be ending prematurely because of lack of Horus (and I don't just mean oldbie hunts but like hunts with the few remaining mid-level healers in existence).
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by noivad » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:17 pm

Destian wrote:
noivad wrote:The only downside is that it would make reckless behavior* have less of an impact. So, perhaps negative histia cap (with horus over the cap being refunded full) would be a more moderate solution. I think prior cap description saying “Exile is nearing death” would be a logical cap: >1000 but less than messages beyond ND. It would discourage reckless actions, but also make a person healable with a healer at the cap or several healers who combine to hit the cap.

*Some people get ND on their own and some thanks to others’ action, so it would still discourage party members acting stupid too.
I guess it depends upon what they're doing.

Horus becomes an issue most often when someone takes a strong hit on red, and that hit on red could be due to any number of factors that aren't related to the victim being reckless (usually a sudden large spawn will make this happen).

This also means that a hunt can be ended prematurely through no fault of the players.

Horus is also unfortunately just one more trainer healers "need" to be effective. For comparison, imagine fighters needing a certain number of ranks in a special trainer to hit any monster that has more than X health, and this would be in addition to Atkus requirements to hit the same monster. Also, this trainer would do absolutely nothing to aid in all of a fighter's other capabilities.

The other problem with Horus is that it's a trainer that's negated by library healers who have just trained tons of Horus.

I can understand wanting "how dead" people are to be of some consequence as a game mechanic, but it ends hunts when hunts are hard enough to start in the first place.

Maybe increase the amount of time it takes to raise someone without Horus, then make Horus decrease that time, as well as reduce or remove the "raise stun" with enough ranks of it.

That way, there's still a downside to being reckless (taking forever to raise), but hunts won't be ending prematurely because of lack of Horus (and I don't just mean oldbie hunts but like hunts with the few remaining mid-level healers in existence).
I was just thinking of why a GM might justify why keeping Horus around, and give a half way point. I myself would mind Horus abolishment.

And yes, some bad falls are not reckless. If an exile is fallen and a person stands near them or walks toward them when a web or rock is thrown, the fallen exile takes additional damage. This is no fault of the fallen exile, and yes people get smacked down by very powerful creatures when they can’t run away too.

But with no penalty, it might encourage sloppy play. Groups might wipe thinking if they fall it’s no big deal, but then more than a few fall thinking this and then a wave of creatures come while half the people are down and the group either wipes or has to retreat a lot of snell to regroup, and rescue anyone that wasn’t chained.

Aside from the idea of it taking longer (someone floated that same idea a long time ago too—was it you?), Another idea might be to have the fallen damage start to reduce itself after an exile is fallen more than 30 seconds, and keep descending until it take no Horus to raise them. If you reduced horus needed by 10 per 5 seconds. In 5.5 minutes it would take 600 less Horus to raise someone. The hunt might stop for 5 minutes if someone is 600 past the combined Horus, or 10 minutes it the exile is 1200 past, but at least it can continue is a group is very far in, and still has time. If the group wasn’t in a place that spawned a lot, some could continue to hunt or lure other snells while waiting, or they could simply take a break if they are in a safe area.

Again this would be a compromise to allow a group to continue (making a bigger time penalty the less Horus a group has), and still keep the deterrent factor. Lack of Horus has been a deterrent for some groups to try snell above their ability, but with this idea, the risk is less likely to kill the fun, either way.
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Destian » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:17 am

noivad wrote:Aside from the idea of it taking longer (someone floated that same idea a long time ago too—was it you?), Another idea might be to have the fallen damage start to reduce itself after an exile is fallen more than 30 seconds, and keep descending until it take no Horus to raise them. If you reduced horus needed by 10 per 5 seconds. In 5.5 minutes it would take 600 less Horus to raise someone. The hunt might stop for 5 minutes if someone is 600 past the combined Horus, or 10 minutes it the exile is 1200 past, but at least it can continue is a group is very far in, and still has time. If the group wasn’t in a place that spawned a lot, some could continue to hunt or lure other snells while waiting, or they could simply take a break if they are in a safe area.

Again this would be a compromise to allow a group to continue (making a bigger time penalty the less Horus a group has), and still keep the deterrent factor. Lack of Horus has been a deterrent for some groups to try snell above their ability, but with this idea, the risk is less likely to kill the fun, either way.
I might've mentioned it in the past but I don't remember doing so so I'm guessing it was someone else. It seems like the natural course of action to make Horus simply raise people faster than preventing them from being raised at all.

And I like the 2nd suggestion as well.

Let's be clear about one key thing, here: all the need for Horus does is consume TIME, be it the extra time we'll need to spend on raising a player who is "very" dead, or the extra time spent chaining a fallen back to town so a library healer with a bajillion Horus ranks can come out and raise them, or the time spent gathering materials for RHPs.

Making hunts take longer when folks increasingly have less and less time in which to spend clanning is the epitome of a terrible idea. This type of time-consuming activity was fine during the Everquest/vanilla WoW era because people still had oodles of time to burn back then.

These days, it'd be better if we could just raise the fallen after a bit more time is spent on them instead of having to drag that Horus healer out of the library.

Also, Horus is just one more necessary trainer that makes oldbie healers that much better than newbie healers, as if we didn't have enough already...
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Lorikeet » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:24 pm

Well I don't care one way or the other as long as I'd get my 1030 ranks back. However, I doubt any GM is going to change this ever.

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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Daimoth » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:44 pm

Lorikeet wrote:Well I don't care one way or the other as long as I'd get my 1030 ranks back. However, I doubt any GM is going to change this ever.
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Re: Horus represents a bad game mechanic

Post by Destian » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:13 pm

Lorikeet wrote:Well I don't care one way or the other as long as I'd get my 1030 ranks back. However, I doubt any GM is going to change this ever.
If Horus worked the other way, it would eliminate raise stun and get people on their feet much faster so it would definitely still be useful.

I also agree with your second statement, however: I doubt very much that anything will change...
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