Reform the circle tests

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noivad
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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by noivad » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:20 pm

Sonny_Bill wrote:
Osito wrote:
Sonny_Bill wrote:
I tried... nobody volunteered to help (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10100). The offer is still open if anybody's keen though.

If somebody's on I do, otherwise it I just give it a go for practice. FWIW I actually go better without armour most times. I suspect that armour decreases some important stats?
Armor solely decreases movement speed, therefore it can be a huge help for tests because it increases damage mitigation significantly. Even wearing armor you should be able to dance around and fight only 1-2 critters at a time. Armor becomes even more useful the more histia/higgrus one trains. The more health, the more armor does for you.
Could just be a placebo. However, I believe I read that the wooden shield definitely does decrease atkus and balance recovery. Not sure about steel armour?

I don't think my clicking skills are in question (you're welcome to try passing the test with my character next week if you're confident it's my skills at fault). A number of people who have watched me and coached me (who I won't get involved in this) can confirm that I'm capable of doing the test pretty well flawlessly. I usually get to the stage where I've taken no damage from the vermine and bersek and am controlling the rage with strings 1-on-1, however he hits harder and has more health than me. Eventually I'll be better than him 1-on-1 so he'll fall.

My point here is that some days you get really bad luck! This week all 4 enemies went right at me in the bottom left corner and surrounded me. I did well to shake them, isolate the rats and then have a few shots at the berserk. However, I'd already last half my health by this stage. This is why I think 3 chances could help. Sometimes you really do just get dealt rotten luck with the test so don't get a fair go at passing.

The two offers remain open though:
1) If it is my skills/tactics, I'm happy for you to show me how it's done.
2) If anybody wants to help me out... the moonstone network and PM function are both there. Give me a buzz and we can arrange a time for some power ranking.
There is some lick involved with hits, and things, but I have passed third for someone else when they insisted it was not possible with their char. But not having seen you (or remembering if you showed me), I don’t know if t here are any flaws with your technique. Dai is right about the # of swings ratio: you should only open yourself to attack to only one at a time and only when you are going to counterattack or attack first. I realize as you get stronger you might not practice this in the field, but if you can perfect only facing one at a time most of the time and placing the creatures where you want them in the field in any area you will have an easier time ding it in the test.

If you’re clicking only once a week, if you haven't already, practice facing one at a time in a solo run to an area with multiple creatures to warm up before you test so you can get you timing and movements down, and not go into the test cold.

If you are running out of health before it does and don’t whiff, then take care of your Achilles heel of Histia, and you might pass faster. But if you are whiffing more than 30% then I would say hit up Evus to increase Histia and atkus & darkus while you’re at it and reap the ~25% bonus.

As others have said, the test doesn’t really give you access to much, it is just a goal without a big reward at the end (when you pass a circle test you should get a bonus rank or 2 IMO). It is a measure of not only ranks but skill, so as long as you have the skill, then the ranks will come. When I passed the 3rd circle test for someone, I did it pretty easily, so skill at positioning yourself and the creatures you fight has very much to do with combat effectiveness, but there is always the roll of the dice, and I have been “robbed” during tests with multiple whiffs like everyone. There really doesn't need to be a reform of the tests: they have been static for al long as I remember. once a week makes sense. If anything, maybe they could include 1 retest immediately after a failure so you at least get 1 do over, but I don’t think they will simply because it forces you to approach each test more focused.
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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Sonny_Bill » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:39 am

FWIW this thread is a bit redundant now because I passed circle 3 quite a while ago and am now a bloodmage.

My final tip for passing the test (sorry I forget which wise person gave it to me) was to coin hard, save up for a sword with a higher atkus + darkus bonus and then pass. Atkus was my biggest problem - people say 150 for a rage, but my experience says otherwise. For example an alt has more than 200 and he can't consistently hit a rage. I think 200+ atkus is a harsh requirement, mostly because you lose all your precious swings and never get them back (which makes you more vulnerable). Then magically after passing circle 3 you get a special blade that gives a fat atkus bonus, removing the need to ever train atkus as a base stat again.

Meh, fortunately I've moved on. 320 BB ranks makes it pretty easy to hit an orga rage (I can now tag a lot of current content and join hunts that aren't specifically designed for me). I secretly like going down to red health and 1 hit killing all of the monsters that used to bully me (before getting smashed by a mob of rats).

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by FriedDylan » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:19 pm

Yes, add on weapons help a lot (if you're not a Champion) Armor will slow you so compensate with training if you use it. I have an alt that's training up for BM and its not a simple task. If specialists need to be a certain amount 'middle of the road' by training Evus then they aren't specialists anymore until they are of a higher level- which seems out of sync with the 3rd circle test versus what it takes to get there.

Murdering 1 bazillion creatures at near death health and requiring higher Histia and Evus to pass the 3rd circle test seems off to me but what do I know? I'm an eternal noob.
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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by noivad » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 am

FriedDylan wrote:Yes, add on weapons help a lot (if you're not a Champion) Armor will slow you so compensate with training if you use it. I have an alt that's training up for BM and its not a simple task. If specialists need to be a certain amount 'middle of the road' by training Evus then they aren't specialists anymore until they are of a higher level- which seems out of sync with the 3rd circle test versus what it takes to get there.

Murdering 1 bazillion creatures at near death health and requiring higher Histia and Evus to pass the 3rd circle test seems off to me but what do I know? I'm an eternal noob.
Considering when 3rd circle was created that specialty blades didn’t exist that explains part, but not all. The “stat race” design was switched up to defeat the “brick build” where everyone was just out-dethaing everything after 3rd & 4th circle were added as well. Luck and creatures with Atkus that would be considered excessive by old standards destroyed a freak Detha/brick build, and the characters trained with freakish Detha mostly disappeared or retrained. 3rd circle was less a differentiation point, than a status point (not counting “adjstment trainers”) back then. So, when you take each test you are also going back in game design (emphasis) time. Back then, a fighter had to be fairly balanced, or quick and have a minimum of core ranks; which were the only kind of of ranks back then. You might find in 5 or 6 the training emphasis changes vs brick build as well, etc. But now becoming a blademaster of some sort changes the balance of training needed to pass the next tests.

But what 3 tests is a good watermark, still. The reason being at higher levels, more base stats make for a hardier character who can be more flexible in combat and also handle higher level hunts. The reason being is that core ranks are effective all the time, vs blade conditions: are you in this state vs the creature or, are you at the right level of hurt, etc.

The game changes at this point as well. You can assist the few newbies that come, and be their rescuer for a change. You can join groups where you were previously weak to contribute (and it be fun since you live longer), and you can even form your own if you wanted & were available at a consistent time with others.
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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Sonny_Bill » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:26 am

noivad wrote:
FriedDylan wrote:Yes, add on weapons help a lot (if you're not a Champion) Armor will slow you so compensate with training if you use it. I have an alt that's training up for BM and its not a simple task. If specialists need to be a certain amount 'middle of the road' by training Evus then they aren't specialists anymore until they are of a higher level- which seems out of sync with the 3rd circle test versus what it takes to get there.

Murdering 1 bazillion creatures at near death health and requiring higher Histia and Evus to pass the 3rd circle test seems off to me but what do I know? I'm an eternal noob.
Considering when 3rd circle was created that specialty blades didn’t exist that explains part, but not all. The “stat race” design was switched up to defeat the “brick build” where everyone was just out-dethaing everything after 3rd & 4th circle were added as well. Luck and creatures with Atkus that would be considered excessive by old standards destroyed a freak Detha/brick build, and the characters trained with freakish Detha mostly disappeared or retrained. 3rd circle was less a differentiation point, than a status point (not counting “adjstment trainers”) back then. So, when you take each test you are also going back in game design (emphasis) time. Back then, a fighter had to be fairly balanced, or quick and have a minimum of core ranks; which were the only kind of of ranks back then. You might find in 5 or 6 the training emphasis changes vs brick build as well, etc. But now becoming a blademaster of some sort changes the balance of training needed to pass the next tests.

But what 3 tests is a good watermark, still. The reason being at higher levels, more base stats make for a hardier character who can be more flexible in combat and also handle higher level hunts. The reason being is that core ranks are effective all the time, vs blade conditions: are you in this state vs the creature or, are you at the right level of hurt, etc.

The game changes at this point as well. You can assist the few newbies that come, and be their rescuer for a change. You can join groups where you were previously weak to contribute (and it be fun since you live longer), and you can even form your own if you wanted & were available at a consistent time with others.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Sonny_Bill » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:26 am

noivad wrote:But what 3 tests is a good watermark, still. The reason being at higher levels, more base stats make for a hardier character who can be more flexible in combat and also handle higher level hunts. The reason being is that core ranks are effective all the time, vs blade conditions: are you in this state vs the creature or, are you at the right level of hurt, etc.
My argument is that it is now almost impossible to create a 'versatile' character from scratch. You will never catch up if you want to be balanced as the only way to be 'balanced' is to have played for more than 10 years (to the point where you have so many ranks that all of your stats are pretty good). This takes a lot of time and dedication - IMO it isn't a realistic goal for a n00b.

To me the goal is to do as much as possible with as few ranks as possible - thus, 'base ranks' are often a little bit irrelevant (because they're all ranks that I gained in order to pass the circle 3 test as quickly as possible). Right now I'm completely imbalanced, with 364 BB ranks my max atkus is somewhere around the 928 mark... I hit most things, and I hit them pretty hard. All I need now is a boot load of histia.

Do n00bz really need base stats, or would training LOTS of histia, then getting your atkus up through blade ranks be a much more efficient way of getting to the point where you can hit 'current level' content? Not gonna happen, and I'm doing a weird hippie talk, but that's my take on it. The less 'base atkus' the better because you're gonna get atkus sooooo much more easily once you start training blade ranks! (Usually without losing your swings).

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Icy » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:09 pm

Sonny_Bill wrote: To me the goal is to do as much as possible with as few ranks as possible - thus, 'base ranks' are often a little bit irrelevant (because they're all ranks that I gained in order to pass the circle 3 test as quickly as possible). Right now I'm completely imbalanced, with 364 BB ranks my max atkus is somewhere around the 928 mark... I hit most things, and I hit them pretty hard. All I need now is a boot load of histia.

Do n00bz really need base stats, or would training LOTS of histia, then getting your atkus up through blade ranks be a much more efficient way of getting to the point where you can hit 'current level' content? Not gonna happen, and I'm doing a weird hippie talk, but that's my take on it. The less 'base atkus' the better because you're gonna get atkus sooooo much more easily once you start training blade ranks! (Usually without losing your swings).
1) You are generalizing by talking about the bloodblade catchup method.
2) You don't need a ton of histia as a bloodblader. Sure most will tell you that you do but you don't need it to do damage. You need it to be less offensive to healers trying to keep you alive.
3) Noobs need base stats to third circle to realize that they will either need to continue at a slower pace indefinitely, start training certain creatures to kill quickly, start training certain positions to hit at all, and be good at full health or at a vastly accelerated pace and be a glass cannon.
3/3/15 9:27:45a Icy has fallen to a Rat.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Maeght » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:55 pm

To pass third you need 125 Atkus, 50 Histia, and enough Detha to brick the Rage. Swing a Greataxe or Greatsword. And a bit of patience to test enough times to not get hit a lot.

"Balanced" training has been oversold for years by people who think a rank not spent on Evus is a wasted rank.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Sonny_Bill » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:30 pm

FWIW Khaladin kicked my bum in passing 3rd circle - maybe in record time? Be interesting to see how quickly he progresses as a ranger (maybe he can 'catch up' as a ranger).

He's definitely opened my eyes to how quickly it can be done if you're in the right timezone and super committed.

The other good news is that we're starting to get a little group of new players who are staying around. Myself, Abox and Khaladin have all passed circle 3 (Abox and I have subclassed) and we're all able to participate in hunts when they are happening.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Sonny_Bill » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:13 pm

Just some quick notes on an experiment I did.

A while back I made 2 fresh characters (both Zo). For one I trained 100% evus. For the other I trained 150 atkus, 400 evus and the rest histia. Which one passed circle 3 first?

No, not the evus one - he can't pass it yet because he can't hit the Orga Rage yet (even when equipped with a greatsword). IMO it is an incorrect assumption that 150 atkus is enough for an Orga Rage.

I calculated that my 'atkus zo' had maybe 230 atkus before being able to hit the rage. IMO this debunks common knowledge about the atkus required for a zo. It also debunks the idea that 600 evus is the fastest way to reach circle 3.

Not that I really care, but I was surprised by this experiment because I thought evus would 'win' for sure. Keep in mind, this was all without armour, and the atkus zo passed using an axe.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Borzon » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:52 pm

Let it swing out.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Mac » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:57 pm

Sonny_Bill wrote:Just some quick notes on an experiment I did.
When I untrained Winkey, I retrained him to 500 Evus and 1k Histia (the most core ranks I could train before needing to go Bloodmage). I was super worried about the Rage (didn't want more Evus and didn't want to fail the test and wait another week before starting BM). I made him a Zo for the extra Atkus and tried borrowing a GS for the test, but ended up getting impatient and doing the test with a dagger... Blew the test out of the water (so bad that I regretted going Zo).

AFAIK, test creatures spawn at different strengths, just like wild creatures. Also, the large Orga will swing twice (with a very small delay before the second swing). It's after that second swing that their balance is the lowest and they are easiest to hit - if you wait to see them swing you're almost waiting too long. Anticipate their swings and time it so you swing immediately after them.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Maeght » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:08 pm

I have a dwarf that's just about ready to pass 3rd. Mostly Evus with a bit of Detha and single trainers when I was short something I thought I needed. Does not yet have the 150 Atkus message. Bricks the Rage. Wields shield and greataxe.

Mac nailed it on the head. You have to anticipate the 2nd swing. I left the Rage for last today. Waiting 2 swings I couldn't hit. Swinging to hit right after the Rage swings the second time resulted in a hit almost every time. The key is your swing has to land right after its second swing.

I started timing the swing too late in the fight and ran out of time.

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Krane » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:17 pm

made it with a dwarf and 122 atkus, I got probably Lucky on such a weak rage

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Re: Reform the circle tests

Post by Maeght » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:48 pm

Yep. Passed today easily. This Rage wasn't as defensive. I could swing after his second rather than time it. Timing it still helped.

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