Numbers? Please!

A place to discuss CL related projects.

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Would you rather

See no numbers (and have the CLUMP on official DT sites)?
4
25%
See the numbers (and have the CLUMP off DT sites)?
7
44%
I don't care/know.
5
31%
 
Total votes: 16

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Cinnamon
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Cinnamon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:35 am

Phroon wrote:I'm not arguing that it's a bad thing to provide this information someplace, but I don't feel that the CLUMP is the right place for it.
I'm curious. Why not the CLUMP? If not the CLUMP, then where?
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Phroon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:59 am

Cinnamon wrote:
Phroon wrote:I'm not arguing that it's a bad thing to provide this information someplace, but I don't feel that the CLUMP is the right place for it.
I'm curious. Why not the CLUMP? If not the CLUMP, then where?
Nowhere, yet.

There is no site on which spoilers can be posted freely. There's always a tapdance between what is a spoiler and what's not that every place currently in existence (Puddleopedia, CLUMP) does. Eyes of Puddleby is about the only exception I can think of.

I'd love for such a place to exist, but as it is now it looks like I'll have to make it myself. :?

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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Overlord » Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:04 am

Phroon wrote:
There is no site on which spoilers can be posted freely.
So is it an issue of DT retaliation or just that one hasn't been created. I see that if it was made public, DT would probably change a number ever so slightly to make the information wrong, but thats just my feeling. If they hate numbers so much, wouldn't they try to make public numbers wrong? Just asking.
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Cinnamon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:39 pm

Screw the naysayers Noi. They don't have to look if they don't want to see. Numbers are good. Hiding them can be good, but only if there is reason to trust the hiding. We have seen too many reasons to not trust them. We have seen too many situations where players have to teach the GMs how to do their own math. Trust in the hidden numbers is already gone, and that undermines the whole game.

If DT fudges the numbers just because someone has reverse engineered them accurately, fuck DT. I don't think they do that. Many of them are readily available. Worst case, ask Gorvin. I recently audited Azriel's numbers on Evus, they appear accurate after 100 ranks.
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Overlord » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:45 pm

Cinnamon wrote:Screw the naysayers Noi. They don't have to look if they don't want to see. Numbers are good. Hiding them can be good, but only if there is reason to trust the hiding. We have seen too many reasons to not trust them. We have seen too many situations where players have to teach the GMs how to do their own math. Trust in the hidden numbers is already gone, and that undermines the whole game.

If DT fudges the numbers just because someone has reverse engineered them accurately, fuck DT. I don't think they do that. Many of them are readily available. Worst case, ask Gorvin. I recently audited Azriel's numbers on Evus, they appear accurate after 100 ranks.
Oh, sorry if you think i said they "did" those things. I was just asking in theory if all numbers were put on a website, what would the consequences be?
Cinnamon wrote:Ever feel like you organised a rally for the homeless only to have anti-abortion and anti-american and pro-gay activists show up and that guy with the rainbow wig and his John 3:16 sign?

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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Cinnamon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:56 pm

Overlord wrote: Oh, sorry if you think i said they "did" those things. I was just asking in theory if all numbers were put on a website, what would the consequences be?
Accurate numbers have been published in the past. The publisher continues to be a well respected member of the community.
The worst thing DT could do is threaten to dump the player from the game. The second worst thing they could do is actually dump the player from the game.
I don't think Joe's that kind of person, but I have been wrong about him in the past.

Someone, Icy? IJ?, had a cheacrets website that detailed the Mystic path. Maybe in that case there was action or threats.
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by noivad » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:41 pm

I kind of agree with Phroon. The goal of the CLUMP is to help new players out by providing them with some guidance in the beginning, and to help experienced players hone their tactics. That was the initial goal at least. Since then, the idea's grown to be the CLUMP is there to provide a manual to the game because of the vacuum of information about player conventions. However within the aegis of a manual numbers come up because they're a handy way to give people an idea of an amount of training needed to do X. The "unofficial" part is what's given us levity with regards to minor spoilers and deciding how to present information.

I remember when Paramedic published what some considered spoilers on thoomcare.com, and some people, including me, criticized him for it (although my criticism was mild compared to some). I really don't want to be put in that situation myself, especially after I was one of the people criticizing him. So, I decided to put the disclaimer on the front page, and just like Para does now, warn people not to look at the equivalent of his comments page, the CLUMP's talk pages.

A numbers breakdown is a good thing in my opinion, and yes Cinnamon, they keep things honest, but I don't feel the CLUMP should be a catch all for all the hidden knowledge. I do feel that it should hold all the player conventions that we've come up with: share toggling, share circles (always being clockwise)*, tagging etiquette, the 3 second rule*, etc.

If someone decided to set up a "Clan Lord Ultimate Secrets Site" wiki, I think it'd be pretty cool if they did it a particular way so as not to spoil anyone's fun. I've actually casually discussed such a web site with others in the game. But I won't be doing it because one site is enough, and I'd hate to diminish the CLUMP as a quasi-sanctioned game resource by putting up a CLUSS. Basically, I want to never hear this come out of an exile's mouth: "Don't go to the CLUMP, it'll ruin the game for you because they give everything away."

But yeah Overlord, DT reserves the right to change numbers and puzzles around to keep what they think is of great value to their game in place. I don't think Joe would cancel accounts, nor retaliate out of spite, but maybe not all GMs feel this way. I know their hands are tied as far as targetting individual people (for good or ill), but a creative mind could always get around the prohibitions without breaking the rules. :D

(*This stuff still isn't in the CLUMP, now I have another page to write.)

Anyway, thanks for everyone's feedback. I'll mull it over and decide where in the CL universe I want the CLUMP to sit. If anyone would like to add anything to the conversation feel free. And thanks for keeping this thing on topic and away from flame wars.
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Raul » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:48 pm

what is the 3 second rule? death tax?
and circle shares arent always cw, but normally are, and people are going to say which way every time regardless

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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by noivad » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:18 am

Raul wrote:what is the 3 second rule? death tax?
and circle shares arent always cw, but normally are, and people are going to say which way every time regardless
The 3 second rule is that if you're holding a creature and people are trying to tag, if no one atacks for 3 seconds it means everyone is done and the other fighters that have tagged can kill it.

And no, not everyone says "clockwise" or "cw" in all groups. In a lot of my groups we just say "circle up" and "set" or "√" unless there's a new person with us. I wrote that it's by convention (not that you can't go CCW), so new players automatically know what to do if no one says it. People sometimes still ask "cw" and I respond: "It's always clockwise." In this case it's good to have a convention to fall back on.

Oh, the "death tax" is that if you fall and haven't tagged something then it's not the responsibility of the other fighters to wait for you to get raised to tag whatever you missed tags on. They can kill things freely if they want once someone trying to tag falls. Nicer fighters will wait until your raised though. The Death tax isn't in the manual because it's a lesser used convention, if it gets more popular it'll go in though.
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Raul » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:05 am

i was actually ascing if the 3 second rule was the death tax, and i thought the death tax was when you fell and were raised quickly and unable to move for a few seconds
whatever i guess you dont really need to know this stuff to play (i got pretty far at least)

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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by noivad » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:49 am

Raul wrote:i was actually ascing if the 3 second rule was the death tax, and i thought the death tax was when you fell and were raised quickly and unable to move for a few seconds
whatever i guess you dont really need to know this stuff to play (i got pretty far at least)
Oh THAT death tax. Yeah. We need a better name for the fall loss of a tag.
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Illora Mone » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:33 am

Being indisposed?
Normal is just a stereotype.

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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by xepel » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:04 am

noivad wrote:
Raul wrote:i was actually ascing if the 3 second rule was the death tax, and i thought the death tax was when you fell and were raised quickly and unable to move for a few seconds
whatever i guess you dont really need to know this stuff to play (i got pretty far at least)
Oh THAT death tax. Yeah. We need a better name for the fall loss of a tag.
Does it really need a name? I mean, I would say that it probably doesn't even matter much. If you fall, you expect to lose some tags. If the healers spend all their time raising you instead of keeping people alive, it's probably bad for the group anyway.

The death tax of falling and not being able to move after being raised too quickly... now that's a real issue. (And should probably be removed, but that's a different thread.)
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Skirwan » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:47 pm

I've always called the inability to move after falling 'deathlock'. I think it's a far clearer description, personally.
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Re: Numbers? Please!

Post by Overlord » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:51 pm

Skirwan wrote:I've always called the inability to move after falling 'deathlock'. I think it's a far clearer description, personally.
Sadly, I agree. Damnit Skir, we've agreed on something, now what?
Cinnamon wrote:Ever feel like you organised a rally for the homeless only to have anti-abortion and anti-american and pro-gay activists show up and that guy with the rainbow wig and his John 3:16 sign?

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