Clump2 Sticky?

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Maeght
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Maeght » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:16 am

Chmee wrote:I always liked the term "dance" as a reference to fighting style.
Yep. It has a long tradition in gaming. I much prefer it to the more modern "kiting".

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Chmee » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:18 am

From the Honorverse wiki:
The Audubon Ballroom was a private organization of escaped genetic slaves whose policy included the kidnapping and assassination of those involved in slavery and slave trade.
and
The Ballroom was named after the building on Earth where legendary human rights activist Malcolm X was assassinated. The habit of taking a name followed by the letter X may also be a testament to his legacy.
The habit referenced was a habit of the members of the ex-slave organization, headed at the time of the honorverse stories by Jeremy X.

The battle cry of the Audubon Ballroom is "Let's Dance!" 8)
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by noivad » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:10 pm

Maeght wrote:The issue is whether or not the CLUMP should be stickied. To answer this, pretend you're a noob and read through:

http://clump2.noivad.net/index.php?title=Fighting

Now read through:

http://fastfeet.bzui.net/

And see which you think is going to help a FotB noobie hunt.

Noivad's "basics" is already talking about hunting in groups. It is NOT written for a noob's perspective. And while probably most people use "click toggles", I don't think that's basic either, unless they're using a laptop. I've always used "click and hold" and I don't find my finger getting tired.

IMO, Thoomcare should be stickied. It's a great jumping off point and has a huge set of useful links, including the CLUMP.

The CLUMP is more like a reference work. Fast Feet is more like a tutorial. That's the difference.
Yup, you're right on the difference. The layout is definitely geared to explain things and not meant to be a tutorial. What do you think could be done to improve the page? I thought I could add a like to fast feet as a start so I don't retread old ground, and it's so well written. Perhaps you'd like to write up a tutorial that can also be linked on a separate page and referenced early on as well?

If I had no ethics I'd probably just lift the content of Fast Feet then update new additions to the combat mechanics since that was written: i.e. Facing. But, I'd rather see original content that cites the original work. My plate is pretty full at the moment, and it is a wiki. So, you or anyone else can write something for inclusion in the CLUMP2. Like I said, I'd be happy to give you an account so you can have at it.

Click toggles is a tip and opinion. Looking at it now I see the problem. I'll update it to label it as a tip/opinion and maybe move it somewhere where it fits better.
Thanks.
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Maeght » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:42 pm

noivad wrote: Yup, you're right on the difference. The layout is definitely geared to explain things and not meant to be a tutorial. What do you think could be done to improve the page? I thought I could add a like to fast feet as a start so I don't retread old ground, and it's so well written. Perhaps you'd like to write up a tutorial that can also be linked on a separate page and referenced early on as well?
In the do/teach/criticize continuum, I think most people know where I'd fit.
noivad wrote: If I had no ethics I'd probably just lift the content of Fast Feet then update new additions to the combat mechanics since that was written: i.e. Facing. But, I'd rather see original content that cites the original work. My plate is pretty full at the moment, and it is a wiki. So, you or anyone else can write something for inclusion in the CLUMP2. Like I said, I'd be happy to give you an account so you can have at it.
I recommended Fast Feet because it was done well. It's been a dozen years since I was a noob and I can't recreate the experience from whole cloth and it would be unethical to simply rephrase Fast Feet.
noivad wrote: Click toggles is a tip and opinion. Looking at it now I see the problem. I'll update it to label it as a tip/opinion and maybe move it somewhere where it fits better.
Unfortunately, that's just your editing style. The CLUMP is about half gathered "facts" and half Noivad fanfic. Together they make a usable whole. Take out the fanfic and what I consider the real content would kind of fall apart. It's like a wall made out of half stones and half mortar.

Maybe for now you could just link to the sections in Fast Feet within a slightly restructured basics section on the CLUMP.

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by noivad » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:02 pm

Well, if you'd really like to discuss it, everything about combat is an opinion. There are very few "facts" when it comes to people and their interactions. There are always different tactics one can use to defeat an enemy, and there are usually countermeasures that can be taken to make those tactics fail. There are tried and true methods for getting things done, but still those aren't "facts."

I already said, much of what is written was culled from what I was taught and learned on my own. I realized that this was my point of view, and there was always room for other views. Thus, I opened it up to edited to allow other voices their chance to include input.

Essentially, what you're saying in your first answer is that your only ability is criticize and find fault with things, but not to offer solutions. While that's fine, it really doesn't help solve the problem. All it does it point them out, and even then the "fact" that they are problems is debatable.

But I see what you're saying. You obviously do not want to help nor add your voice to the project either because you are unable to, do not have the time or you are just holding a grudge against me. Or perhaps it is a bit everything. I'll let you answer that if you wish. But in any case. If you find things you disagree with (which you excel at doing), bring them to my attention and i'll consider your input, and either I or someone else with an account can make changes.

I'll ignore your loaded phrase, "FanFic." because you're just trying to get under my skin with that one. If the only way you can communicate is by conversing like a troll, know that I'll discard the insults and baiting and interpret your message in the most helpful way for my goal of improving the Project. So, fire away, and thanks of the feedback, no matter the form it takes.
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Maeght » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:20 pm

noivad wrote:Well, if you'd really like to discuss it, everything about combat is an opinion. There are very few "facts" when it comes to people and their interactions. There are always different tactics one can use to defeat an enemy, and there are usually countermeasures that can be taken to make those tactics fail. There are tried and true methods for getting things done, but still those aren't "facts."
Tactics aren't opinion. What tactic to use in a situation, that's opinion based on the resources you have and the goals you're trying to achieve. When the two are mixed as an example, when talking about "formations" and fighting tactics, it's very hard for noobs to sift out the wheat from the chaff.
noivad wrote: I already said, much of what is written was culled from what I was taught and learned on my own. I realized that this was my point of view, and there was always room for other views. Thus, I opened it up to edited to allow other voices their chance to include input.
That's great. People find it useful. That's great too. It's just not appropriate to teach noobs. I don't know many people that learn well from reference works. I learned to play chess from an encyclopedia. Then I had to unlearn what I thought I'd learned.
noivad wrote: Essentially, what you're saying in your first answer is that your only ability is criticize and find fault with things, but not to offer solutions. While that's fine, it really doesn't help solve the problem. All it does it point them out, and even then the "fact" that they are problems is debatable.
No, and this is why I don't credit your ability to learn from material presented to you. All I was saying was that my critical skills outweigh the others. And I ended my post with a suggestion of how to take a first step towards refining the CLUMP. But you saw neither of those points.
noivad wrote: But I see what you're saying. You obviously do not want to help nor add your voice to the project either because you are unable to, do not have the time or you are just holding a grudge against me. Or perhaps it is a bit everything. I'll let you answer that if you wish. But in any case. If you find things you disagree with (which you excel at doing), bring them to my attention and i'll consider your input, and either I or someone else with an account can make changes.
You don't see what I'm saying. My participation in this thread was to object to stickying the CLUMP. It was not to criticize the CLUMP as a general resource. And no, I'm not interested in editing the CLUMP for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the sheer volume of edits needed. Heck, some people might even enjoy digging through the CLUMP for nuggets. Clearly they find them on a regular basis.
noivad wrote: I'll ignore your loaded phrase, "FanFic." because you're just trying to get under my skin with that one. If the only way you can communicate is by conversing like a troll, know that I'll discard the insults and baiting and interpret your message in the most helpful way for my goal of improving the Project. So, fire away, and thanks of the feedback, no matter the form it takes.
OK, you're forcing me to agree with Daimoth again, a position I'm not fond of:
Daimoth wrote:There's a lot of stuff in that site that seems to be personal perspective and conjecture, rather than actual confirmed and tested fact.
Also what's a "Dancer" in the 'Fighting Styles' section? I've never heard of a "Dancer" in all of my years of playing Clan Lord.
That's where the Fanfic jab came from. When arguably the best fighter in the game can't make heads or tails of the text of the topic, and you turn what is at best an RP term into a term of fighting art that doesn't exist in the lore base, you're writing fiction. And in some cases it's worse, because your fiction isn't anchored in general experience and people without experience will look silly citing it as a result.

You're welcome to have the last word or we can take it to FWitB. I'm done with this thread.

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by noivad » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:55 pm

You sure about that? From your history generally can't resist the last word.

I am paying attention to what you're writing, but there is so much chaff and personal digs that your message is being lost among the noise. I made changes to the things you pointed out specifically.

As far as what is appropriate to teach new players: I take issue with not presenting them with all the information available and allowing them to take what they will out of it. I do not follow the position that every new player needs to be "hand raised" by giving them bits and pieces to digest slowly, and only exposing them to new information as needed. This is a wiki -- it is a repository of knowledge -- not a classroom with linear time constraints. If I was presenting this information in a medium that did not allow random access, I would structure it like that. I am however completely open to someone writing linear pages to complement the project and guide players through it. It can be as simple as a page of links to read in order, or as much as completely new content that references current content.

You also misinterpret the target audience. It is intended for all levels of players as a guide for them. The more advanced the player, the more they might call things into question which is fine. Again, it is a wiki: it is a medium that encourages exchange of information, and allows multiple points of view. The optimal solution to problems you or anyone has with it that benefits the community is to point out those problems. You do not have to rewrite everything, you can simply add notes and your take on things in the discussion page for each page and link that or place it above or under text you have a problem with. Again it's very flexible, and I'm open to all sorts of approaches.

Since you state that criticism is your forte, you're perfect for the job of analyzing content. But I understand that it's a huge task -- it took quite a few people a lot of time to create the content of the CLUMP. One of my biggest problems is managing the information when there are changes or new knowledge discovered. So, I understand your reluctance to get involved. All I can hope for is people willing to point out things that need attention.

I do not think this needs to be taken to FWitB. I have not been hurling insults at you. If you have interpreted any of my replies in this thread as such, that is not my intention. I'm done sparring with you and everyone else because it accomplishes nothing positive. If anything we should take this to out of character or coffee and donuts, since it is related to a CL related project. (But I know you refuse to post somewhere that I have moderation control over, thus the out of character forum suggestion.)
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