Clump2 Sticky?

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noivad
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Clump2 Sticky?

Post by noivad » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:39 pm

Hey, the CLUMP2 ( http://clump2.noivad.net/ ) should probably be stickied here for new players looking for answers to common questions. Also, old timers: If you see any incorrect info, or things that have changed in game that haven't been updated, please point them out to me via PM or in Coffee and Donuts. As always you are welcome to request and account to make the changes yourself. The CLUMP2 belongs to the community, and ever since I wiki-fied my Fighter Manual this has been the case.
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Daimoth » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:52 pm

There's a lot of stuff in that site that seems to be personal perspective and conjecture, rather than actual confirmed and tested fact. Like the 'side notes' in particular. Like this:
"side note 2: Many fighters choose to use Evus to increase their Histia because they believe it raises your slaughter less. Though it is not proven that the equivalent amount of histia in Evus' training raises your slaughter less than the equivalent amount of Histia Training. If anything, Evus allows them to improve their overall performance while their slaughter rises more naturally, which keeps their "wall" the same distance away."
I have no idea what that means. I'm pretty sure most people don't know what that means. And it's solely conjecture anyway. Eldon himself has said that the slaughter-rate of a combo trainer is the sum of its composite ranks.

So why is stuff like that in this guide?
side note: Detha vs. Histia Once a young Fen'neko female fighter by the name of Ananna, asked me if it was better to have a large amount of Detha or a large amount of Histia. I replied, "Well, what's better? being able to take more hits, or being able to avoid being hit?" However with the increase of some higher level monsters' atkus and lucky hits?, the detha advantage has been lessened. Currently the matter remains in debate.
Pretty sure no one is debating this. They are very different trainers that fulfill very different requirements. Any brick worth a damn needs both stats anyway, so why is there even some compare/contrast conjecture going on in a site that's supposed to be informative to new people?

Seems to me like they just need to be informed about the facts.
Atkia improves Atkus, Darkus and Swengus (which is a combination of Balthus and Regia) according to the best available information.
Atkia gives Accuracy, Damage and Regia. It doesn't contain any Balthus component.
Evus has a small bonus associated with his training, so you actually get more than 1 rank's worth of lessons when training him......

Some even believe he (Swengus) gives a little bit of a bonus over training Balthus and Regia separately.
So you say Evus has a bonus -- okay. Then you say "some even believe" Swengus has a bonus? Why? You already told them about Evus' bonus, so you may as well just be affirmative about Swengus' bonus too.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Daimoth » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:09 pm

Also what's a "Dancer" in the 'Fighting Styles' section? I've never heard of a "Dancer" in all of my years of playing Clan Lord.

Also I don't agree with your "Tank" entry at all. Troilus? WHAT. Low Regia? Why? You also added more conjecture about Histia having a large slaughter rate that I don't feel is appropriate considering that has never been conclusively tested.

Also bricks these days need high Detha, Balthus AND Histia to be effective at all. That should probably be added. I think the brick/tank role is mostly interchangable. Or at least should be, especially considering the 20%+ luck rate most monsters have these days, and dealing 100+ Histia per hit in damage at times.

I also noticed that Ranger isn't on here. Probably should be. Likely attached to DPS. You might want to make a "Burst Damage" or "Hit-and-Run" role too and probably put Bloodbladers or really high goss Rangers under it.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Daimoth » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 pm

Honestly, I'd be fine editing this. But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want me editing it. Because I'd be pretty brutally honest. Like ...

Code: Select all

"Short sword -- This sucks and is just an inferior version of a Studded Club but costs more. Don't buy this. I don't know what GMs were thinking when they made one weapon both cheaper and better in every single capacity than another weapon 2 feet away from it in the same building."
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Maeght » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:14 pm

Daimoth wrote:Also what's a "Dancer" in the 'Fighting Styles' section? I've never heard of a "Dancer" in all of my years of playing Clan Lord.
http://vagilemind.com/clanlord/viewtopi ... aga#p70794
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Maeght » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:26 pm

IMO, the Clump should not be sticked for newbies. It takes a veteran to weed through all the garbage.

If we were to sticky something like that, I'd suggest http://fastfeet.bzui.net/tips/index.shtml (Better Living Through Fast Feet.)

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Gloria » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:40 pm

Aw, you guys are being overly critical. I'm referred to CLUMP for years for helpful information. I don't know if Noivad should open the CLUMP to outside editing because the content may change.
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Maeght » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Gloria wrote:Aw, you guys are being overly critical. I'm referred to CLUMP for years for helpful information. I don't know if Noivad should open the CLUMP to outside editing because the content may change.
I'm not saying the CLUMP isn't useful. I'm saying its not an appropriate tool for noobs. It's not organized the right way and it's not edited well. And a ton of what's in there are Noivad's ramblings about fighting. At least he's mostly dumped the formations stuff. That was a running joke. As Daimoth pointed out, "Dancer" is not a term of Clan Lord fighting art. You have to know the history of Clan Lord to know what it means and the vast majority of active Clanners don't. So the noob is going to read this stuff, learn terms Noivad has made up and then the noob is going to try to talk to exiles about that stuff.

It's a reference work and the scope is too large. That's like handing a first grader the curriculum for K-12 and suggesting they self-study.

Fast Feet is organized the right way. It's very old, but the concepts are still relevant.

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Daimoth » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:48 pm

Gloria wrote:Aw, you guys are being overly critical. I'm referred to CLUMP for years for helpful information. I don't know if Noivad should open the CLUMP to outside editing because the content may change.
The content should change. A lot of it is speculation that isn't grounded in trial. Especially all of the slaughter-rate talk.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by noivad » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:25 pm

Actually, I'd only turn down people who would deface the wiki or use it to promote non-CL related commercial interests. Daimoth, you are welcome to an account if you'd like one. Being brutally honest is fine, as long as content is objective, and opinions are labeled as such. (As far as I recall, all opinion is labeled as such or implied.) I however would like to remind you that your tone should be neutral. Yes, you could say the weaponA is not a good choice as a weapon, and you can mention that weaponB would be a better choice. I have no problem with good advice, but using loaded phrases like "so-and-so weapon sucks" doesn't come off the right way. While yes, it might be perfectly true that weaponX or TrainerX sucks to put it plainly, the tone interferes with getting the message across because new readers might be turned off by the language, and instead of thinking, "I shouldn't get this weapon because the person who wrote it knows better." they might think, "The person that wrote this is an ass, and/or isn't telling my WHY this weapon/trainer is inferior. So, I'm not going to listen to him/her."

As far as you're taking issue with content, that's fine. That's why I wikified it, so there could be discussion and updates from people more knowledgable than I was at the time. Much of the content was written almost 10 years ago, and was current at that time. For example, histia was thought to be high slaughter, and training styles mentioned were what the then current wisdom said. Not only that but luck hits were not used in as many creatures as they were now, and the highest level creatures at the time were probably Lyfes. The training styles said certain builds emphasize certain trainers, not that they eschew trainer not mentioned.

So, yes, If you were to update the training styles page now, you'd want to mention that yes, bricks now have to have the histia to back up their defense for luck hits that are common among upper level creatures, and Rangers would be listed as well a Bloodmages in the appropriate categories. Again, 10 years ago, none of that really existed.

I'll be happy to update that page if you don't want an account. If you, or anyone would like an account, there's just 2 optionally 3 things I need: your CL player name you'd like as your account name (one that you would like the entries credited to), a valid e-mail address so you can activate the account, and I can get a hold of you if I need to directly. And optionally, your real name if you'd like. E-mail addresses will not be sold or given to anyone -- I believe I stated somewhere in the CLUMP pages how much I hate spam and commercialization of everything. So, I would never do anything to help someone get your email address.

Again, I want to emphasize that the CLUMP2 is somewhere around 80 pages -- some of them very long. So, it would be too laborious of me to scan each page every time there was an update to change info. On occasion someone will point something out to me -- like you have -- and I'll offer them an account to update it or solicit their advice and input on updating the information in question. On occasion I'll reread a page and update it on my own, but it's a big job for one person to keep everything current. Also, there's quite a few things I don't know since I don't have a champ nor a bloodmage, nor pay a lot of attention to formulas. While I make an effort to be clear and accurate on the things I do know, I depend on contributors and readers to add info on those things, point out things that are out of date, confusing or just misleading. Again, that's why it's a wiki. So, please jump in and question things that you don't agree with, please point out outdated info, and help make it a good resource for players.

I wish it were an open wiki, where any player could sign up and I could step back more, but the CLUMP1 was almost overrun with spammers making accounts and page updates I had to block one at a time. I switched to approval, but that didn't stop the spam account making management manageable.
Last edited by noivad on Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by noivad » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:20 pm

Maeght wrote:
Gloria wrote:Aw, you guys are being overly critical. I'm referred to CLUMP for years for helpful information. I don't know if Noivad should open the CLUMP to outside editing because the content may change.
I'm not saying the CLUMP isn't useful. I'm saying its not an appropriate tool for noobs. It's not organized the right way and it's not edited well. And a ton of what's in there are Noivad's ramblings about fighting. At least he's mostly dumped the formations stuff. That was a running joke. As Daimoth pointed out, "Dancer" is not a term of Clan Lord fighting art. You have to know the history of Clan Lord to know what it means and the vast majority of active Clanners don't. So the noob is going to read this stuff, learn terms Noivad has made up and then the noob is going to try to talk to exiles about that stuff.

It's a reference work and the scope is too large. That's like handing a first grader the curriculum for K-12 and suggesting they self-study.

Fast Feet is organized the right way. It's very old, but the concepts are still relevant.
Well, for one, fast feet is a very small work, and only covers the very basics of one subject. Maeght, you too are welcome to an account, and make beginners guides and changes to make it more accessible. The CLUMP isn't a step by step guide to CL mastery, it's more of an encyclopedia with a few different starting points suggested. The CLUMP's goal is to be inclusive of all sorts of aspects of the game that people used to have to go to many sites to get, and much of which was taught orally to each new player.
So, it's a much more ambitious work.

BTW, If you look at the links section you'll find that Fast feet is linked in the CLUMP, because it is a seminal work. If you'd like to make a page suggesting the order in which to read pages and other sites in, great. Send me your info, and I'll be happy to make you an account.

Again, refer to my response about when much of it was written. The term "Dancer" was one that was known when the guide was written, but now is archaic. I went and Updated "Dancers" to "Taggers" since it was a quick fix in the http://clump2.noivad.net/index.php?titl ... es#Taggers section. Thanks.

About, "My ramblings." I don't know how far back some of you go, but I learned much of what is in the CLUMP from other players that predated my arrival. They had built up systems and tactics that worked well, and I decided that instead of having to explain how to work with others effectively, that I'd write it down and offer it to people. Yes, there were things that didn't have standard names, and there were things that weren't commonly used, and even some things I tried out on my own. In those cases I tried to find an appropriate name for them if one didn't exist. I owe a lot of the foundation to people that no longer play, like Urgelt. If I had to name one person that taught me the most about group fighting it would be him. While some people are too young to appreciate it, and question some of the content's validity because of their lack of experience, it doesn't mean that a lot of these things are invalid. Nor, does it mean that just because something is not 100% accurate, that the rest of the manual can be thrown out with it.

If some things weren't commonly known, but I found them effective, I included them as well. Ideas such as running "off kilter" to avoid pile ups when encountering creatures, defensive postures of groups such as forming a circle in cases where danger was coming from all sides, and the ideas of making a wall of fighters to make a safe area behind them where the injured could heal where mostly mine or crystalized by my wiring them down. A lot of the stuff isn't rocket science either if you've ever played any game where positioning matters. The idea of anchoring on terrain and using terrain to your advantage is mine (mostly). However, no matter how much I explained in text how to do these things, it was 10x more effective to take 1 or 2 people out and show them how to do these things.

I pulled the formations content because -- while I did teach some of them in the field and they were effective -- they were too difficult for most people to read about and apply. The diagrams were not clear because of the fluid nature of mobile formations, etc. Also, their inclusion became a point of mockery -- which I found funny -- but I also realized it brought the entire work into question. "Triple-Reverse Shredder" was funny and I made a few jokes about it too, but the idea of "the shredder" mobile formation was valid because people had been doing it, I just gave it a name, and formalized it. (i.e. You know when a ton of fighters rush into one spot around a creature and they all get tangled up and cut each other off, and trap people, and get people killed or make other miss tags? Well, by getting people to stand in line and to exit another direction, then get back in line you end up with a circle where everyone knows what to do so everyone gets a shot and people aren't bumping into each other. That was 'noids group 101 stuff.) I always meant to flesh out the formations with CL movies showing mobile forms in action, and explain more about them, but never got around to it because it was hard enough just teaching people to move as a unit. Specifically, this type of coordination takes groups a while to get down, and it's usually with the same people. In short, I wanted to bypass the familiarization curve by establishing a systems that people could reference and be on the same page. But in the end, there was no substitute for field experience with group of people you know.

Anyway, Gloria said "maybe I should open it up to editing." To answer that: When I wrote it a sent copies to senior fighters and others for review and feedback. I got zero feedback. But I also got sick of having to say the same things over and over. So, the earliest version of it was (and probably still is) on noivad.net I'd give people a link to it and say "read this section because it will be a lot faster than explaining it to you, and talk to me about it if you have any questions." I did get a little feedback which allowed me to revise pieces. But then I realized it would be a lot better, and more complete if I had other people's input. So, I looked around and decided a wiki was the way to go. version 1 was in another php wiki product that ran slow and was a pain to manipulate. Few people could navigate it easily and it didn't do what I wanted it to very well. I remember once having an exchange with Eldon, and he said that he liked MediaWiki and that I should check it out. Well, I did. Set it up and copied all the pages I made in the previous wiki over to MediaWiki. I also, announced it and allowed open reg. for people to update it. As mentioned above I had to close that down due to spammers. However, when I did I posted a notice saying that anyone could request an account. So, yes Gloria, the CLUMP has always been open to editing.

(Edited for typos made into garbled sentences thanks to OS X 10.7)
Last edited by noivad on Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Dyaus » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:12 am

noivad wrote:So, yes Gloria, the CLUMP has always been open to editing.
Once day I asked Noivad for a CLUMP account so I could start a Ranger article and he was more than happy to oblige. (With other people pitching in, it's now become an article that seems to be widely used -- I see new Rangers often referring to it.)

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Eirian » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:51 am

I have found the CLUMP2 invaluable since I started playing, and even more so once I started rangering. It doesn't replace getting advice from more experienced players, but it's a great starting point and often gives me the concepts and language I need to ask the right questions.

And really, searching or scanning the index and appendices are all easy ways to find your way to the topic you need.

Thanks, Noi. :)
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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Maeght » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:45 am

The issue is whether or not the CLUMP should be stickied. To answer this, pretend you're a noob and read through:

http://clump2.noivad.net/index.php?title=Fighting

Now read through:

http://fastfeet.bzui.net/

And see which you think is going to help a FotB noobie hunt.

Noivad's "basics" is already talking about hunting in groups. It is NOT written for a noob's perspective. And while probably most people use "click toggles", I don't think that's basic either, unless they're using a laptop. I've always used "click and hold" and I don't find my finger getting tired.

IMO, Thoomcare should be stickied. It's a great jumping off point and has a huge set of useful links, including the CLUMP.

The CLUMP is more like a reference work. Fast Feet is more like a tutorial. That's the difference.

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Re: Clump2 Sticky?

Post by Chmee » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 am

I always liked the term "dance" as a reference to fighting style.
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