Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

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Alces
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Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Alces » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 am

Since this is the Newbie/FAQ section, I'd like for (several) people to confirm the following information that I have gleaned over the past few months about "Oldschool" Bloodblades versus "Newschool" Bloodblades.

Please confirm the following to be True/Untrue
  • Oldschool BBs are no longer attainable.
  • Newschool BBs will turn your icon's weapon a reddish color when equipped- Oldschool BBs will not.
  • If a Bloodmage picks up/equips an Oldschool BB, it will automatically transform into a Newschool BB.
That out of the way, I have a couple of questions about Oldschool BBs.

Does an Oldschool Bloodblade...
  • Consume spirit when used with training?
  • Scale its balance consumption with the bonuses given to accuracy and damage in the same way that the Goss does with more and more training? (Thus requiring training balance in addition to Histia and BB)
Please feel free to add more information about Oldschool & Newschool BBs here. Inquiring minds, and all that. :D

Thanks!
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Nunul » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:34 pm

I may be off base here, but the dark art of bloodmagery is not quite newbie suitable material. (Nor am I comfortable supplying a ranger with said information)
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Alces » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:04 pm

.......really?

Okaaaaaay...



Someone PM me, then?

Thanks.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Alces » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:18 pm

Hooray for the Advanced Search feature...! 8)
Alces wrote:Does an Oldschool Bloodblade...
  • Consume spirit when used with training?
viewtopic.php?p=119099#p119099
Daimoth wrote:You don't need any spirit to use the old bloodblade.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Seld'kar » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:53 pm

Alces wrote:Hooray for the Advanced Search feature...! 8)
Alces wrote:Does an Oldschool Bloodblade...
  • Consume spirit when used with training?
viewtopic.php?p=119099#p119099
Daimoth wrote:You don't need any spirit to use the old bloodblade.
That is not acurate information, at least from what I've been shown.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Leinis » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:14 pm

Seld'kar wrote:
Alces wrote:Hooray for the Advanced Search feature...! 8)
Alces wrote:Does an Oldschool Bloodblade...
  • Consume spirit when used with training?
viewtopic.php?p=119099#p119099
Daimoth wrote:You don't need any spirit to use the old bloodblade.
That is not acurate information, at least from what I've been shown.
What Daimoth said is correct and the answer to Alces' question is also yes. :twisted:

The old BB does consume all your spirit every swing, but it doesn't require that you have spirit to begin with. It will just set your spirit to zero every time you swing with it while qualified and under a certain amount of health.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Seld'kar » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:38 pm

Leinis wrote:The old BB does consume all your spirit every swing, but it doesn't require that you have spirit to begin with. It will just set your spirit to zero every time you swing with it while qualified and under a certain amount of health.
My bad, the BB drains drains spirit, but doesn't use it. Are you sure the lack of spirit doesn't affect the atkus/darkus from the BB though?
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Leinis » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:41 am

Seld'kar wrote:
Leinis wrote:The old BB does consume all your spirit every swing, but it doesn't require that you have spirit to begin with. It will just set your spirit to zero every time you swing with it while qualified and under a certain amount of health.
My bad, the BB drains drains spirit, but doesn't use it. Are you sure the lack of spirit doesn't affect the atkus/darkus from the BB though?
Not for the old one.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Ebony » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:37 am

I don't really see any harm in the questions asked, though I can't be absolutely certain about whether old bloodblades are still obtainable (they effectively aren't for me), but probably not.

New bloodblades will turn your weapon red when your health is low enough that you are receiving a benefit from the blade. Old ones did not have this feature, I don't know if they do now or not.

If anyone carrying a new bloodblade picks up an old one, the old one will become a new one as well. I haven't tested if this also applies to bloodmages not carrying a new one. A fighter cannot become a bloodmage without having a new bloodblade as far as I know.


The original bloodblade used to consume spirit proportional to the amount of damage done. For anything larger than a rat this was likely enough to empty your entire spirit pool in one hit. No one was ever able to show that the loss of spirit had any secondary effects to my knowledge. If there was a difference between swinging on full spirit vs. empty spirit it was far too small to measure. There was lots of rampant speculation back then between the bloodbladers, but pretty much everyone I talked to thought it did something different, so I lean toward it having no effect at all.

I wouldn't compare the old (or new) bloodblade to the goss as far as conservation. The bonuses provided by the blade are proportional to current health levels and training and the old bloodblade provided quite a bit of both balthus and regia, meaning it was probably impossible to train enough of it to render you unable to swing. In its very first incarnation, this made bloodbladers almost impossible to hit with high training at full balance, so the defensive effects of the balthus were removed shortly thereafter to prevent "bloodblade bricks". This is why bloodbladers actually have "negative" defense after swinging, you have used all the free balance, but still have the defense penalty that canceled it out. Because you only see your balance as a percentage, some confused the huge gains in balance and recovery for a conservation mechanic as your balance bar got more spastic with each swing as your health went down.

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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Alces » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:55 am

Ebony wrote:I wouldn't compare the old (or new) bloodblade to the goss as far as conservation. The bonuses provided by the blade are proportional to current health levels and training and the old bloodblade provided quite a bit of both Balthus and Regia, meaning it was probably impossible to train enough of it to render you unable to swing. In its very first incarnation, this made bloodbladers almost impossible to hit with high training at full balance, so the defensive effects of the Balthus were removed shortly thereafter to prevent "bloodblade bricks". This is why bloodbladers actually have "negative" defense after swinging, you have used all the free balance, but still have the defense penalty that canceled it out. Because you only see your balance as a percentage, some confused the huge gains in balance and recovery for a conservation mechanic as your balance bar got more spastic with each swing as your health went down.
Interesting...I don't quite get what you mean by the defensive effects of Balthus- AFAIK, Balthus still provides defense...
Apologies if I've misunderstood...

What I was getting at was- If one has access to an Oldschool BB and is qualified to train with it, can they train ONLY Histia and Bloodblade, or do they need to train Balthus/Regia/Swengus as well? What about ranger spirit trainers (Splash & Respin)- Will training them be beneficial or negligible to Oldschool bloodblade use?

And yes- by extension, I'm trying to determine if the Oldschool BB is akin to the gossamer, not in terms of balance conservation per se, but in terms of "more bonus to accuracy and damage requires more balance to use." If a Ranger trains too heavily with the Gossamer, they will eventually begin receiving messages along the lines of "you don't have enough balance to take full advantage of your Goss bonus", and I wanted to know if this was also the case for Oldschool (and Newschool) BBs.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Garr » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:31 am

So, basically you're trying to find the best way to abuse the bloodblade?

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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Nunul » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:13 am

Garr wrote:So, basically you're trying to find the best way to abuse the bloodblade?

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Could not possibly be. You see, this is the FAQ and "Newbie Guide" forum.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Alces » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:00 am

I am a noob to bloodblades.
I have a couple of Oldschool ones in my pack from years past.

You're right, CLEARLY this isn't the appropriate forum to ask questions.

As for the "just ask someone in game, nub" argument, I don't have a lot of time to devote to actual gameplay, so I prefer to get my info from the Sent whenever I can.

But hey- thanks for trolling...that helps. (A$$holes...)
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by xepel » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:31 am

I'm sorry people are trolling you, Alces. It is just that (to someone experienced with how the BBs work) it seems like you are trying to find the 'most abusive' way to use the bloodblade. You probably don't mean it that way, that's just how it seems.

The old bloodblades pretty much *are* abusive. A person could only train BB and Histia for the rest of their life and be amazing... with the old bloodblade. It gives enough regia and balthus so that you can always swing, and while your swings aren't super quick they certainly aren't super slow either. At low red you're getting something like 8 or 9 effective ranks for every rank in the bloodblade. Yes, you have no defense (for all the +balthus given by the BB you get a bit more -detha, so when you swing you have effectively negative defense), but many BBers don't train defense anyway.

New bloodblades need more support. They don't give as much regia (so you need to train some to keep your swings up), they use up 'blood', and so they require additional training to be as useful. They also give new abilities (to bloodmages) which one can also spend ranks on. They are more skill-intensive because you need 'blood' in order to deal damage, and you need to be able to dance around beasts and pick up the blood drops from those that you kill... without falling yourself, as then your blood drains from you.

It was said that all the 'old' bloodblades will be replaced/changed to the new bloodblades at some point. I hope that point comes sooner rather than later, though that's all under GM control.
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Re: Questions RE: Bloodblade Mechanics (Old vs New)

Post by Nunul » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:03 am

xepel wrote:I'm sorry people are trolling you, Alces. It is just that (to someone experienced with how the BBs work) it seems like you are trying to find the 'most abusive' way to use the bloodblade. You probably don't mean it that way, that's just how it seems.
Pretty much this, Alces. Sorry if it came off as a troll, but between what Xepel wrote, on top of quite a bit of current BM frustration with the subclass... You are already a member of arguably the most ridiculously powerful/viable subclass, and trying to gain even more zot ability from the BB kind of causes rancor.
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