Slaughter 101

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Alces
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Slaughter 101

Post by Alces » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:15 am

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Alright, I wasn't really able to find answers to my questions using the Search feature, so here goes-

First off, here is everything that I know about slaughter already (please correct me if I'm wrong):
- Each Core trainer contributes a different amount of slaughter per rank. (e.g., Histia's sltr rate is more than Regia's)
- Core trainers (e.g., Evus) have significantly higher slaughter rates than Non-Core trainers (e.g., Striss).
- Trolius has one of the highest slaughter rates in the game. This is a safeguard against healers becoming obsolete, and it is also purposefully built into the super-efficient subclass combo trainers to discourage overuse.

Questions on Slaughter
1) Is it tied to the actual #value of ranks, or is it tied to the effective ranks?

E.g., Two Fighters:
(For the sake of argument, I'll assume that each 100 ranks of Evus yields 115 rank's worth of non-combo Core fighter ranks like Regia & Detha)

FighterA has 1000 Evus, giving him 1150 effective core fighter ranks.
FighterB has the same 1150 core fighter ranks that Evus would train, but trained them individually.

Do both fighters have the same slaughter rate since they both kill things as effectively as the other, or does FighterA have less slaughter than FighterB by virtue of the fact that he has less actual ranks?


2) How does Untrainus effect slaughter?
Regardless of how question#1 is answered, when Untrainus is used and the ~30% rank loss penalty comes into effect, is the individual's slaughter rate adjusted accordingly to match the character's post-penalty level; or will the character continue to slaughter things as though they still were in possesion of those lost ranks?
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Cinnamon » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:46 am

To my knowledge, and I'd love to know if I'm right or wrong, the trainers are the closest thing we have relating to sltr. The trainers aren't the base ability. Take Histia & Higgrus for example. Both of these trainers improve your D&D termed Hit Points. 1 rank of Histia gives you 17 Hit Points (numbers are for illustrative purposes only). 1 rank of Histia < 1 rank of Higgrus. Atkus for example may give 19 points of accuracy and 7 points of balance.

Sltr is calculated on those hidden base skills. Each skill has a weighted conversion factor for sltr. Troilus has a higher sltr rate than any other trainer availabel to Fighters?

1150 ranks from Evus vs. the exact same base ability using other trainers would have the same sltr rate.


There's critter sltr & rank sltr. Above is about critter sltr.
Rank sltr is the increased xp required to get the next rank. I have no idea if this is calculated based on the hidden skills or the known trainers.

I suspect that CL doesn't actually know how many ranks you've trained with a trainer. It only knows the hidden skills. I never trained Eva, yet I get a message from her about how cool I am in her eyes. She's dumb & doesn't know I never signed up for her classes.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Dyaus » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:38 pm

Cinnamon wrote:Rank sltr is the increased xp required to get the next rank. I have no idea if this is calculated based on the hidden skills or the known trainers.
As I understand it, it's based on your "trained" ranks rather than "effective" ranks. So training combo trainers not only gives you more training per rank, but also makes ranking slightly easier down the road.
Last edited by Dyaus on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Seld'kar » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:39 pm

I suspect that CL doesn't actually know how many ranks you've trained with a trainer. It only knows the hidden skills. I never trained Eva, yet I get a message from her about how cool I am in her eyes. She's dumb & doesn't know I never signed up for her classes.
This is acurate. Not much else in this thread is though afaik.

Slaughter is not determined by the hidden skills. Nes'mll has something like 9000 effective sespus, but she kills jade arachnoids just fine. Slaughter seems to varry from train to trainer, but I've also heard that certain training combinations lead to exceptionaly high slaughter (large quantities of both histia and detha). 1000 ranks of evus gives 1300 effective ranks not 1150. Slaughter may essentialy be another stat given by training in which case untrainus probably handles it the same way he handles everythign else. Exp to rank (cin's "rank slaughter") is based only on the total number of ranks you have trained (real, not effective). Of course we know things like unspent ranks increase slaughter, so it could easily be dynamic. In short its a mystery.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Gorvin » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:51 pm

Seld'kar wrote:1000 ranks of evus gives 1300 effective ranks not 1150.
Frankly, the way people count "effective" ranks leads to really inflated rank counts, because they over-count trainers like Atkus, which are actually combo trainers. 1000 Evus is only worth ~1300 ranks if you blindly add up the percentages of Atkus, Darkus, Histia, Regia, and Balthus that it gives, without taking into account that some of those trainers are combo trainers themselves. Take two fighters: one trains 1000 ranks of Evus, and the other trains a combination of Atkus, Darkus, Histia, Regia, Balthus, and Detha to reach the same stats as the Evus fighter. It takes the second fighter 1143.6 ranks to do this.

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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Seld'kar » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:16 am

Gorvin wrote:Frankly, the way people count "effective" ranks leads to really inflated rank counts, because they over-count trainers like Atkus, which are actually combo trainers. 1000 Evus is only worth ~1300 ranks if you blindly add up the percentages of Atkus, Darkus, Histia, Regia, and Balthus that it gives, without taking into account that some of those trainers are combo trainers themselves. Take two fighters: one trains 1000 ranks of Evus, and the other trains a combination of Atkus, Darkus, Histia, Regia, Balthus, and Detha to reach the same stats as the Evus fighter. It takes the second fighter 1143.6 ranks to do this.
Totaly unrelated tangent: If I had a surplus of swengus and I trained atkia how fast would my atkus message increase.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Gorvin » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:20 am

Seld'kar wrote:Totaly unrelated tangent: If I had a surplus of swengus and I trained atkia how fast would my atkus message increase.
81.25% as fast as training Atkus. (Or did you mean Aktur?)

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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Trowl » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:59 pm

As far as I know, each rank trained gives "skill points"
each of these points effects your slaughter
some trainers only give 10 skill points
others give 30
There are also + skill points, which do nothing but make your slaughter higher
And - skill points, which lower your slaughter
So while I can get 400ish skill points from spleisha, only 20 or so of them effect my slaughter
Or troilus: I may only get 20 troilus skill points, but also 17 + skill points, making my effective slaughter +37 skill points

This is why training a combo troilus trainer can be better than training straight troilus (better for your slaughter rate,) because there may or may not be the + skill points.

I think something like 15 skill points to the average rank. Not sure tho
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Daimoth » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:41 pm

My opinion:

I wouldn't worry about slaughter too much. The benefit of the rank will always outweigh any effects like that. Unless it's something out of your profession. In which case, don't train it. Ever.

A more valid thing to concern yourself is exp-to-rank, which all ranks change in the exact same way. So if you can, try to get your goal style with as few ranks as possible. Which means using as many combo trainers as you can (Evus, Swengus, etc.) and staying away from single trainers unless you know for a fact that you don't need the other portions of the combo trainers in the foreseeable future.

NEVER train each trainer up individually when you can do them faster and cheaper (in terms of exp-to-rank) with combo trainers.

In conclusion:::

Slaughter-rate affects the experience garnered from tags.

Exp-to-rank affects your rank rate. A lower exp-to-rank means it takes fewer experience points to rank. Whether it be from shares, tags, or library. You can tell why this is most important.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Gloria » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:42 am

Yet there may be a counterbalancing element in place to prevent combo trainers from being more efficient than training individual trainers.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Gloria » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:02 am

It's extremely important that no GM reveal whether or not a counterbalancing element is at work in combo trainers. In this way, there would be no way to know if one pathway is more efficient.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Daimoth » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:54 pm

Gloria wrote:It's extremely important that no GM reveal whether or not a counterbalancing element is at work in combo trainers. In this way, there would be no way to know if one pathway is more efficient.
There's no "counterbalancing" element. Besides the exact ratios you train being out of your hands, which is easily remedied by supplemental training on top of the combo trainers.

Combo trainers are definitely more efficient, on multiple levels. I wish it weren't so, but it is. GMs themselves have mentioned it.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Gloria » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:56 pm

It would take a lot of testing effort to prove that the GMs haven't added a counterbalancing element. Right now it is uncertain.
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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Lorikeet » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:12 pm

Gloria wrote:It would take a lot of testing effort to prove that the GMs haven't added a counterbalancing element. Right now it is uncertain.

I guess you are the only one who is uncertain Gloria. :D

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Re: Slaughter 101

Post by Leinis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:54 am

Gloria wrote:It's extremely important that no GM reveal whether or not a counterbalancing element is at work in combo trainers. In this way, there would be no way to know if one pathway is more efficient.
Ann wrote:One rank of any trainer costs the same experience as any other. Some trainers affect your slaughter level more than others, generally correlated with how powerful or effective the trainer is. Combination trainers with a bonus, like Evus and Eva, affect your slaughter more than regular ones do -- by the amount of that bonus, give or take.
Guess what? Ann says that slaughter is the "counterbalancing element" in combo trainers! Guess what else? Healers, high level fighters relying on shares, and people who gain most of their experience from the library (you fall in to two of those categories) don't have to worry about their slaughter! Guess one more time? Since all trainers cost the same experience as any other but combo trainers have a bonus, they are more efficient for all purposes except fighters who are tagging!

Sorry Gloria, but your bubble was popped before you ever came to Clan Lord. This information was from 2005.
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