"Upgrade" to Radium?

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Icy
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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Icy » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:54 am

Aside from the current setup working in your favor (I assume by your direct 'No.'), why else are you in favor of limiting a person's ability to choose Phroon?

I can see a point where I would want to heal everyone in range but I would want some people to be healed faster (more important to survival people such as Daimoth/Kerrah on my previous hunts) while others I would want them to be healed but if they weren't healed quickly I wouldn't mind (mainly taggers).

The convenience of not having to switch people every 5 seconds on a cad is how I justify spending ranks and coins into this new toy. It has nothing to do with performance to me.
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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Phroon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:16 am

Icy wrote:I can see a point where I would want to heal everyone in range but I would want some people to be healed faster (more important to survival people such as Daimoth/Kerrah on my previous hunts) while others I would want them to be healed but if they weren't healed quickly I wouldn't mind (mainly taggers).
You lose prioritization to gain Radius healing and increased efficiency with training. It's a trade off. I assume that's the whole point of the item.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Brune » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:41 am

Icy wrote:
Could Radium be changed so that the Healer heals the people he/she shares, rather than the people sharing the Healer? Because currently it seems that you can force a Healer to heal you simply by sharing them and moving into their group heal, even if they are unwilling.
What if the healer wants to heal more than five people? And why should the healer have to juggle shares? In addition, if the healer is doing some kind of WiFi healing, maybe there are consequences (and since the current system eliminates non-sharing folks, there isn't all that much to abuse).

For me, I often share people (aka "mystics") who aren't on my hunt. My share isn't worth anything, but it helps me keep tabs on others, and to be noticed when disaster strikes.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Tip'ii » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:01 pm

Phroon wrote:
Icy wrote:I can see a point where I would want to heal everyone in range but I would want some people to be healed faster (more important to survival people such as Daimoth/Kerrah on my previous hunts) while others I would want them to be healed but if they weren't healed quickly I wouldn't mind (mainly taggers).
You lose prioritization to gain Radius healing and increased efficiency with training. It's a trade off. I assume that's the whole point of the item.
Phroon has a good reason, here are a couple more:

1. You can already get the Staff version and give Daimoth a burst or two while radius healing the group.

2. It employs the tried and true KiSS method (Keep it Simple, Stupid) of software development. Once you add that layer of complexity -- different healing speeds for different targets, then you have to decide how much faster should Daimoth get healed? How much faster your friends, and how much slower your not-friends? One more place for bugs to creep in, one more area to complicate healer life.

3. An equal split is fair. Healing your friends faster than others is gonna cause people to resent it, cause they will tend to live longer, to get more tags, more exp. Why change something which is fair into something which is not fair? CL is a social game, we don't need divisive mechanisms.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Lorikeet » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:14 pm

I agree that the healing speed should be equally divided amongst those you are healing. I still think there should be an option to exclude someone, but since I probably won't be using it, I guess I won't worry about it.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Talin » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:17 pm

Just piping up to support Icy's idea.

I think the split faustus, and if I understand right, less efficiency when healing 1 or 2, are enough of a trade-off. I was hoping for just /use /lockout prsn, since healing the 600+ higgy or 1.5K+ respia healers when they are white but healing someone, seems so moot (remember, healers have to have one share to each other on hunts where all -1 can fall, either in- or outgoing). Without the /lockout the tool is not much use to me on any hunt a tad faster than the standard brick-standstill hunts. Tricky enough to notice when the fighter runs out of range (no biggie, since he/she gets re-healed when coming back), or I run out of range (no re-healing).

But Icy's idea is really much better. It makes the "control" mutual, prsn A not wanting to get healed by prsn B just unshares. For the healer right now it is all or nothing, or rather, all or 1.

Giving the healer the power to prioritize above "on" and "off" would be awesome fun for the healers :twisted: ;) Also, of course it is totally useful, as others mentioned before.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Talin » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:28 pm

Tip'ii wrote: 2. It employs the tried and true KiSS method (Keep it Simple, Stupid) of software development. Once you add that layer of complexity -- different healing speeds for different targets, then you have to decide how much faster should Daimoth get healed? How much faster your friends, and how much slower your not-friends? One more place for bugs to creep in, one more area to complicate healer life.
Ya, those lil healer types should really not have to try to think, it is not good for them :mrgreen: (jk, though someone once did tell me that in game, LOL). Complicate healer life? Making it more fun is often a bit more complicated. Mind to not flush out the baby with the bathing water (saying in my country, hope you catch the drift :) )
Tip'ii wrote: 3. An equal split is fair. Healing your friends faster than others is gonna cause people to resent it, cause they will tend to live longer, to get more tags, more exp. Why change something which is fair into something which is not fair? CL is a social game, we don't need divisive mechanisms.
Everyone is free to hunt with whomever he she likes. One does prioritize anyway, and up to now, I rarely heared a complaint (cept once or twice a fighter wanted a tag so badly). It would not need to be like 1-99%, maybe just steps like prio 1-4. Frankly speaking, not including anything like this will lead to certain people not be invited anymore on certain hunts. I do like to hunt with lots of people, among others a bit weaker people, mystics, young healers etc. But my ONE priority has to be the ones seeing to us surviving. Soon it will not only be the fighters being anxious about less fighter-shares, but also about less healing-power with every new member to the group. I do not call that fair.

Furthermore, in a not entirely balanced group, equal share is far from fair, and can be outright murdering the group. People have different roles in the hunt, very often. I prefer to keep those up, who do the most for the group in terms of surviving.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Tip'ii » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:09 pm

Talin wrote:
Tip'ii wrote: 2. It employs the tried and true KiSS method (Keep it Simple, Stupid) of software development. Once you add that layer of complexity -- different healing speeds for different targets, then you have to decide how much faster should Daimoth get healed? How much faster your friends, and how much slower your not-friends? One more place for bugs to creep in, one more area to complicate healer life.
Ya, those lil healer types should really not try to think, it is not good for them :mrgreen: (jk, though someone once did tell me that in game, LOL). Complicate healer life? Making it more fun is often a bit more complicated. Mind to not flush out the baby with the bathing water (saying in my country, hope you catch the drift :) )
hehe, I was not meaning to say healers shouldn't think, but that the software developers shouldn't over-estimate their ability to put in bug free, complicated algorithms for priortizing healing speeds.

Talin wrote:
Tip'ii wrote: 3. An equal split is fair. Healing your friends faster than others is gonna cause people to resent it, cause they will tend to live longer, to get more tags, more exp. Why change something which is fair into something which is not fair? CL is a social game, we don't need divisive mechanisms.
Everyone is free to hunt with whomever he she likes. One does prioritize anyway, and up to now, I rarely heared a complaint (cept once or twice a fighter wanted a tag so badly). It would not need to be like 1-99%, maybe just steps like prio 1-4. Frankly speaking, not including anything like this will lead to certain people not be invited anymore on certain hunts. I do like to hunt with lots of people, among others a bit weaker people, mystics, young healers etc. But my ONE priority has to be the ones seeing to us surviving. Soon it will not only be the fighters being anxious about less fighter-shares, but also about less healing-power with every new member to the group. I do not call that fair.

Furthermore, in a not entirely balanced group, equal share is far from fair, and can be outright murdering the group. People have different roles in the hunt, very often. I prefer to keep those up, who do the most for the group in terms of surviving.
I have hunted with you Talin, and you are amazing at keeping the group alive and making progress. I can only imagine the prioritization algorithm running through your brain... the brick is yellow, but not in real danger, so heal the yellow taggers, except not the BBer cause he wants to be "just yellow". -or- the brick is yellow, and there is a spawn of real nasties... heal the brick and any taggers who are smart enough to be in a good position -- that silly tagger out in front of the brick? lost cause, we'll come back for them. -or- the brick is yellow, and all the taggers are yellow, but your partner healer is getting whacked by a nasty... heal your partner healer and the brick and forget all the taggers. -or- the brick is yellow and taking damage, but is not finishing the critter because they are waiting for one tagger to get "lasties" on it, and they are low health too, heal the brick and the ranger and hope the other taggers are smart enough to stay out of the way. etc etc etc

I don't think any static priority scheme is gonna cover all the situations, so we would need a dynamic priority system, maybe a set of priority schemes you can quickly switch between in the heat of the battle. Then we start to get into the complicated software that I am concerned about. IMO, better to have this new thing simple (equal division of healing), and to rely on single target healing for the complicated situations like you are really good at right now.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Icy » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:16 pm

Tipii,

I was thinking the most logical command to change someone's or some friend group's priority would be /use green 75% or something. Therefore you could easily write macros based on a situation where green was your brick, blue is your tagger, yellow is your 'big gun' (lol rangers), and purple is other healers.

An all clear scenario
f9
{
"/use green 10%\r"
"/use blue 65%\r"
"/use yellow 25%\r"
"/use purple 0%\r"
}

An 'oh shit' scenario
f10
{
"/use green 50%\r"
"/use blue 0%\r"
"/use yellow 25%\r"
"/use purple 25%\r"
}

ect.

Seems like it would be really simple to change based on your situation. Always the ability to exclude some, and if some in the other groups weren't in need of healing then the leftover faustus could be distributed much like it is already. The more I think about it the simpler it seems unlike most of my ideas which tend to approach illogical after I few minutes of thought.
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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Tip'ii » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:58 pm

Icy wrote:The more I think about it the simpler it seems unlike most of my ideas which tend to approach illogical after I few minutes of thought.
And, these other ideas that are illogical after you think about them a few minutes... they seemed simple at first too? :D

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Skirwan » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:01 pm

Friends and friend groups are done entirely on the client. The server doesn't have the slightest idea who you have labeled purple.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea, I'm just saying it's not a matter of 'just use the groups', it's a matter of 'completely change how groups are implemented, then use them'.
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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Kitlin » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:37 pm

I have a few observations after using the new tool for two days. Surely that is long enough to form an opinion.

I do like the fact that there is no message constantly spamming the recipient that he or she is being healed. This brings the distance healers back to the level of the moonstoning healers in that fighters ought be aware of their support. However, I anticipate the practice of cad-spamming to get a share to exist until a radius healer is satisfied with the shares he or she has to create the aura of healing.

Contrary to good mr Icy's prioritization concept, I prefer the egalitarian method of healing. Should one wish for their "share" to be larger, good mr Rodnus and mr Spiritus exist. Should the brick or rod point be in need of aid, the aura can be instead focused upon that recipient. Indeed, this does allow the littlest taggers who are usually the last recipients of aid in a large party to get aid along with everyone else, albeit markedly slower.

While healing a poisoned exile does drain a fraction of the overall speed, it did allow me to not restart the healing process. I appreciate the 'bug' will leave, but enjoyed that benefit.

We shall see how good ms Radium's training aids in the future, but given the history of the lands, I anticipate dissatisfaction until such a point as she provides twice the normal Faustus-speed for every exile within the aura.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Org du Lac » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:41 pm

Skirwan wrote:Friends and friend groups are done entirely on the client. The server doesn't have the slightest idea who you have labeled purple.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea, I'm just saying it's not a matter of 'just use the groups', it's a matter of 'completely change how groups are implemented, then use them'.
After reading Icy's post I thought it meant something along the lines of "/useitem aklepsian /green Daimoth" ... "/purple Lorikeet" "/yellow Kalian" to set colors, then "/useitem aklepsian /set green 25%" to set percentages. It's clunky, and would (essentially) require macros, but there's probably some clever-er way of doing it too (option for healer vs. fighter vs. mystic percentages would be a nice, I guess).

I like the general idea though, and exact implementation suggestions probably aren't the most important thing.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Slartibartfast » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:12 am

Kitlin wrote:While healing a poisoned exile does drain a fraction of the overall speed, it did allow me to not restart the healing process. I appreciate the 'bug' will leave, but enjoyed that benefit.
I don't understand what you mean about not restarting the healing process. Could you explain? Chances are the benefit is still going to be around, just without cutting into your speed as much.

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Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Kitlin » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:57 am

Slartibartfast wrote:
Kitlin wrote:While healing a poisoned exile does drain a fraction of the overall speed, it did allow me to not restart the healing process. I appreciate the 'bug' will leave, but enjoyed that benefit.
I don't understand what you mean about not restarting the healing process. Could you explain? Chances are the benefit is still going to be around, just without cutting into your speed as much.
Upon completion of healing all within range, my aura stops. When the next exile gets hit, I must restart the aura. With the poisoned exile, I can trail behind the patient and have a continuing aura.

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