"Upgrade" to Radium?

Moderators: Kani, CL GMs

Post Reply
User avatar
Gandor Durin
Exile
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:22 pm

"Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Gandor Durin » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:33 pm

There's already similar trainers out there, for Fighters, that allow them to gain two Regia and two Darkus but lose a lesson of Evus.

How about one for Healers that lets them gain two radium but lose one Proximus? It seems to me that Radium is superior to Proximus, so if it's possible to 'upgrade' them to Radium's lessons, that'd be fantastic.

Eh?

Eh?!

User avatar
Daimoth
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 6321
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:29 pm
Profession: Destroyer of Worlds
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Daimoth » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:38 pm

Gandor Durin wrote:How about one for Healers that lets them gain two radium but lose one Proximus? It seems to me that Radium is superior to Proximus, so if it's possible to 'upgrade' them to Radium's lessons, that'd be fantastic.
I don't think Radium is superior to Proximus. I don't think they're even comparable.

Proximus seems to now be the universal trainer for healing range. Radium is much more specialized in that it only benefits the Asklepian. If you were to base your entire training around the Asklepian, I would agree that Proximus would indeed be rank-inefficient. However, until studies are done, we have no way of knowing if this is a feasible style or not.

But nonetheless, a Knox/Angilsa version of Radium would be nice for those who wish to specialize in the tool. There is a problem though, in that one cannot go into "negative" Proximus, as one can go into "negative" fighter trainers. So the trainer would need to be fixed so that it caps once your Proximus is anywhere below 1 full rank.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

User avatar
xepel
Trainer
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:20 pm
Profession: Bard
Race: Sylvan
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by xepel » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:03 pm

Gandor Durin wrote:There's already similar trainers out there, for Fighters, that allow them to gain two Regia and two Darkus but lose a lesson of Evus.
Gaining two Darkus and losing one Evus is rank-inefficient because Evus gives >1 rank of skill per rank of experience. Your suggestion is like gaining two Evus and losing one Regia, which would be crazy-good in terms of experience value.

But besides, Daimoth is right. Radium and Proxi are different, and have different purposes, And if Radium really is *that* much better than other similar trainers, it needs to be rebalanced (or else we have the sprite/awaria problem all over again). Radium has trade-offs though, so I doubt it's as good as you think it is.
Helpful GM exclaims, "Mystics can fly and walk through walls. They don't need boats on the water, and they can teleport at will!"

Slartibartfast
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:25 pm

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:53 am

I think you probably don't fully understand what Radium does. Could you tell me what you think it does and why so I can try to prevent similar misunderstandings, assuming that is the case. The only reason Radium would be better than Proximus is if you didn't want to use the "cad" version of distance healing. And I can't think of many reasons people would want to do that because of how radius healing works. That said, it is designed so you can use it without any Proximus because I'd love to see some Radium-only healers out there. It should be a feasible route, I just don't think it would be one most people would want to take.

Edit: Also, this should go without saying, but for every new ability the effects of training are always subject to slight changes. The good news is Radium is actually likely to get Better, not worse. But you can never be sure.

User avatar
Gandor Durin
Exile
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:22 pm

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Gandor Durin » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:12 am

Slartibartfast wrote:I think you probably don't fully understand what Radium does. Could you tell me what you think it does and why so I can try to prevent similar misunderstandings, assuming that is the case. The only reason Radium would be better than Proximus is if you didn't want to use the "cad" version of distance healing. And I can't think of many reasons people would want to do that because of how radius healing works. That said, it is designed so you can use it without any Proximus because I'd love to see some Radium-only healers out there. It should be a feasible route, I just don't think it would be one most people would want to take.

Edit: Also, this should go without saying, but for every new ability the effects of training are always subject to slight changes. The good news is Radium is actually likely to get Better, not worse. But you can never be sure.

I have to admit I'm a bit ignorant on this trainer, but I was told that it has two features: Increasing the range of 'radius healing' and also giving more Faustus than Faustus does but ONLY when radius healing. By taking this into account, I personally would like to get rid of all of my proximus so that I could focus entirely on radius healing. Now, I don't know exactly how radius healing works. What I have been told is that it either uses 1/3rd or 1/5th of your normal Faustus to heal everyone within your radius. Even knowing that, I'd still give up my proximus training for it since I'd rather specialize in group healing and train a ridiculous amount with Radium to the point where my normal Faustus is almost negligible.

It's an entirely new method of healing, and I am in no way complaining of its implementation. It's just that over time my proximus training will become less and less useful to me to the point where I stop using the normal staff function altogether and do nothing but radius heal. I have no idea how much Radium it would take to actually surpass my current Faustus, probably at least several hundred, but being able to turn my proximus INTO Radium would really help me make the 'switch' a lot faster. But it wouldn't be an instantaneous switch like some folks tend to do with Untrainus to try out new trainers.

Anyway, this is all moot if what I've learned about Radium isn't accurate.

Slartibartfast
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:25 pm

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:42 am

Gandor Durin wrote:I have to admit I'm a bit ignorant on this trainer, but I was told that it has two features: Increasing the range of 'radius healing' and also giving more Faustus than Faustus does but ONLY when radius healing. By taking this into account, I personally would like to get rid of all of my proximus so that I could focus entirely on radius healing. Now, I don't know exactly how radius healing works. What I have been told is that it either uses 1/3rd or 1/5th of your normal Faustus to heal everyone within your radius. Even knowing that, I'd still give up my proximus training for it since I'd rather specialize in group healing and train a ridiculous amount with Radium to the point where my normal Faustus is almost negligible.

It's an entirely new method of healing, and I am in no way complaining of its implementation. It's just that over time my proximus training will become less and less useful to me to the point where I stop using the normal staff function altogether and do nothing but radius heal. I have no idea how much Radium it would take to actually surpass my current Faustus, probably at least several hundred, but being able to turn my proximus INTO Radium would really help me make the 'switch' a lot faster. But it wouldn't be an instantaneous switch like some folks tend to do with Untrainus to try out new trainers.

Anyway, this is all moot if what I've learned about Radium isn't accurate.
That is more or less accurate and I'm thrilled you like it. Some people actually like experimenting and figuring things out so I won't ruin things too much in this post, but I do plan on giving out more details a bit later. Basically though, it splits your healing evenly among the targets you're healing in your radius (it would be 1/3 if there were 3 people, for example, or 1/5 if there were 5). However, a few things make it so that healing just one or two people isn't really all that good, so you're only getting a real benefit when you're healing 3 or more. There are also a few things that start to really hit around 80 or so ranks of Radium that make further training a bit less effective on average. If you're planning a long term strategy, I'd suggest you wait just a while and I'll give a lot more details.

But overall your analysis is correct, and this can definitely be seen as "specializing in healing large groups", which is the intent of the trainer/ability. In addition to just giving people a cool new toy to play with.

Back to the original suggestion, I'll wait a while and see how things work out, but I'll consider it if you're still interested. I'm not really sure and it will take some thought, normally I'd be against this kind of thing because it could be argued for most new abilities "well if I had known this ability was coming, I wouldn't have trained this other ability." But I specifically imagined a new specialist that didn't have any proximus and trained just Radium, and I'd be thrilled to see one or two. As I said though, I think this will be an exception to the rule, because most people probably don't hunt in large enough groups for them to feel the ability is worthwhile in huge quantities. Well, and also because most healers already have Proximus, which is why your suggestion is tempting to me.

User avatar
Cinnamon
Sun Dragon Clan
Sun Dragon Clan
Posts: 6375
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:06 am

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Cinnamon » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:31 am

Thanks for the info.

I think I'll wait for a year or two before I try this. If it were just the item/cash I'd be all over it. Since there are more ranks involved instead of just re-purposing Proximus to work differently with the tool, and it would take me a year to get those 80 ranks...better to wait and let others do the legwork.

Sounds very cool.
This sig pic removed by Vagile

User avatar
Daimoth
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 6321
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:29 pm
Profession: Destroyer of Worlds
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Daimoth » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:53 am

Could Radium be changed so that the Healer heals the people he/she shares, rather than the people sharing the Healer? Because currently it seems that you can force a Healer to heal you simply by sharing them and moving into their group heal, even if they are unwilling.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

User avatar
Lorikeet
Pogue Mahone
Pogue Mahone
Posts: 3717
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 12:58 pm
Profession: Healer
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Lorikeet » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:00 pm

It's my understanding that radium also does not work on fallens.

User avatar
Hoggle
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:03 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Dwarf
Player Status: Active

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Hoggle » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:11 pm

But that would reduce the number of people healable though.. down to 5 from atleast over 8 now. This is used when people are healing groups, I think that in these cases the healer will want to get some healing from other healers too, so they will want to share other healers on the hunt.

And Slarty, I believe several are under the impression that training radium will result in an increase of over all healing. Something like "you can heal 5 people, but they all get 1/3rd your healing"(obviously its probably not that good.. but you see what i mean.)

There is no overall bonus eh?

User avatar
xepel
Trainer
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:20 pm
Profession: Bard
Race: Sylvan
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by xepel » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:11 pm

Daimoth wrote:Could Radium be changed so that the Healer heals the people he/she shares, rather than the people sharing the Healer? Because currently it seems that you can force a Healer to heal you simply by sharing them and moving into their group heal, even if they are unwilling.
But then you are limited in the group that you can heal. Perhaps you want to give your shares to mystics (who find them helpful) or friends, as opposed to fighters in the group. Also, it seems like Radium is designed for large groups, perhaps even more than five. If you get to that many people, you are going to need to be sharing/unsharing people constantly depending on who needs heals... and with the delay on being able to share/unshare, it's going to be really annoying.

Perhaps if you don't want to heal someone who is sharing you, you could move away... or simply not invite them on your hunt. (When does this really ever come up, anyway? Are there really people on your hunt who you don't want to heal? Or does this only happen in TC, which I don't think is much of a problem?)
Helpful GM exclaims, "Mystics can fly and walk through walls. They don't need boats on the water, and they can teleport at will!"

User avatar
Hoggle
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:03 pm
Profession: Ranger
Race: Dwarf
Player Status: Active

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Hoggle » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:17 pm

Lorikeet wrote:It's my understanding that radium also does not work on fallens.
Are there two healer items that use selenite? I think the other one should split up your horus equally and allow you to raise multiple people at once. so. if you have say 1k horus and two fallens are near you, you can raise 2 at 500 horus now.. not exactly split though.. there should be some inefficiency in there, so maybe its 2 at 450.... 3 at 250.. 4 at 150.. or whatever.

User avatar
Daimoth
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 6321
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:29 pm
Profession: Destroyer of Worlds
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Daimoth » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:41 pm

Yeah but some people are just asses. Not many, but some.

I don't want to be healing an invasion party and then all of the sudden Snerticus Prime shares me and cuddles close to me and I'm forced to cad or moonstone instead of use something I have lots of ranks in just because he's a big jackass and threatened to rape my father. Hypothetically of course.

There should be some way to block your asklepian healing others if needed. But I do see your point, Xepel, with share spamming on big groups.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

Gremlins
Fenix Fire
Fenix Fire
Posts: 811
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:42 am
Profession: Fallen
Race: Ghorak Zo
Player Status: Active
Location: Likely with some spiders…
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Gremlins » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:03 pm

This might be completely off, but I think one of the reasons you can't raise fallen using the ability is that it would eventually be abusable. Get a bunch of nubs running into water sharing you. Have the tool handy, go afk and admire the exp from healing without doing anything… Even if that exp is not much, if you get 5 nubs, that will probably seems worthy to some… And again, you just have to do… nothing …
I'm still trying to find out when that would actually be a useful skill compared to current healing. There might be since some apparently want to train into it :) And as a fighter requiring healing all the time (ok, not when I'm hunting ferals which according to some is my only activity), I think I have the patience to wait my turn to be healed full power than getting a 5th or 8th or whatever of healing :) Looks so far to me like a nice bot tool more than anything else. I'm ready to admit I'm wrong but please point to me usefull use of it :)
Chum wrote:Do not attempt to apply logic to matters regarding Clan Lord; it'll just drive you nuts... ;)

User avatar
Daimoth
Llehn ryn Rhav'tsath
Posts: 6321
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 1:29 pm
Profession: Destroyer of Worlds
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Active
Contact:

Re: "Upgrade" to Radium?

Post by Daimoth » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:11 pm

Gremlins wrote:This might be completely off, but I think one of the reasons you can't raise fallen using the ability is that it would eventually be abusable. Get a bunch of nubs running into water sharing you. Have the tool handy, go afk and admire the exp from healing without doing anything… Even if that exp is not much, if you get 5 nubs, that will probably seems worthy to some… And again, you just have to do… nothing …
Yeah, even with the fallen thing, this sounds exploitive. Take newbies to an easy to maintain place like undine hut/VT and train enough Radium and you can afk perpetually without having an incident.
Extreme level disparity is community disparity.

Post Reply