Unfinished Story: Qual and Votenkath

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Yor
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Post by Yor » Mon May 29, 2006 7:26 am

Daimoth wrote:This is probably a bit off-topic but, ...

Why has almost every single GM-controlled roleplayed event during my career involved directly, or in some great way, Sylvans? Particularly of the female variety?

The 'brions are all Sylvans (at least in the flesh.). Quall or whatever his name is turned out to be a Sylvan. The broad who healed him with her amazing Separ was Sylvan. The neverending Nox storyline almost *only* involves Sylvans. Almost every NPC or otherwise that magically comes to life or appears to trade is suddenly a Sylvan, and the pretty great majority of those who trip over something very rare or GM-granted are, yes, Sylvans.

I'm just curious.
Wasn't Katpus a Sylvan as well?

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Post by Yor » Mon May 29, 2006 7:43 am

~Garr~ wrote:The Nox were fun, and started completely and run completely by players, the GMs thought it was fun and joined in from time to time.
That's pretty much how things use to work. If a player-generated story was fun, interesting, and consistent there were some occasions where the GMs would join in and even enhance things with the tools at their disposal.

There use to be debates about some player's stories getting ignored while other's got the GM touch. The reality of it was the GM's just didn't have enough time to join in and enhance every player-generated storyline and well.. some player-generated storylines were awful and inconsistent so not worth the effort. You have to have some real talent and patience to create an interesting persona/storyline AND keep up with it consistently. Although the GMs seem more behind-the-scenes now I imagine they're still willing to intervene like this if there were some player-generated storyline worth their time.

One of my all-time favorites was Phineas's/Tenebrion's. That was hilarious. :D

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Post by Eldon » Mon May 29, 2006 8:09 am

Valtrim wrote:
Eldon wrote:
Drablak wrote:I saw Tessa in tc inspect poeple but I thought it was made-up RP, not anything deeper than that.
/action sighs
Tell me, conclusively, how to determine simply by seeing a PC use \action which player character plots and actions do and do not receive legitimization from the GMs. If you can't, then Drablak's statement is perfectly valid.

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Your premise is what's wrong.

If you see a storyline that interests you and the person doing it wants interaction, do it! Involve yourself!

How many times must I say that someone having a blue box around them means nothing more than the color of the box? Remember when all boxes were the same color?

I'm tempted to give everyone access to a blue box. Then this insane argument about what's "valid RP" vs. "non-GM sanctioned" RP can go the rubbish bin.

And, if I hear one more OOC argument about "well, if it's not a blue box, I figured they're just insane," I think I'll turn you into a newt to enhance your roleplay.
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Post by Drablak » Mon May 29, 2006 9:10 am

Eldon wrote:Your premise is what's wrong.

If you see a storyline that interests you and the person doing it wants interaction, do it! Involve yourself!
First I don't have anything against player-driven RP, but only up to a point and I want to chose which I get involved in.

In a RPG I expect the GMs to make sure the world stays consistent and whatever rules exist are maintained.

Odly enough, this is the perfect thread to give as an exemple. Let's say that Tessa decided she had found a cure for the dewed and went to someone with '/action cures Babajaga of the dew with her hypo-spray', what then? What about all those who were still searching for the Separ at the time? How does Baba react to that? What if that was a blue box?

There are limits to what player-driven stories can and should be able to achieve, because players can go too far or simply because players see only part of the bigger picture. It's the responsibility of the GMs to make sure the big picture is taken into account, that the rules are maintained and the world stay consistent. I don't trust all the players to make these kinds of decision.

In this case I didn't know Tessa well enough when I first saw her do that, and I was still a bit unsure of her dual personality model, so I didin't want to jump in something that could have been going in a direction I'd regret later on.
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Post by Skirwan » Mon May 29, 2006 9:42 am

Eldon wrote:I'm tempted to give everyone access to a blue box. Then this insane argument about what's "valid RP" vs. "non-GM sanctioned" RP can go the rubbish bin.

And, if I hear one more OOC argument about "well, if it's not a blue box, I figured they're just insane," I think I'll turn you into a newt to enhance your roleplay.
Go ahead, turn me into a newt.

"/action expands and grows wings, slowly changing into a giant dragon."
"/action breathes a spray of deadly, deadly fire over town center, making sure to cover everyone with his fatal flames."
"/action flaps his wings and flies away in the direction of meadow."

The reason we don't treat every old action box as gospel is because there is literally no way for reality to remain logically consistent if we do.
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

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Post by Valtrim » Mon May 29, 2006 10:00 am

Eldon wrote:How many times must I say that someone having a blue box around them means nothing more than the color of the box? Remember when all boxes were the same color?
Yes. Remember when people \actioned casting magical spells, killing (or even just hitting, before dueling glove and outside arena) other people, or being gods? Some of those people received GM support; others didn't. Why? What are the criteria that govern which stories become "real", receiving GM support, and which don't? If enough people have fun roleplaying Jedi Knights, will lightsabers appear in Clan Lord?

Take part in the plotlines that look fun to you; very good. If I don't enjoy a plotline or think that it's premise is dumb, should I make my disbelief apparent? And if enough people think that a plot is bad, does that mean that it won't receive GM support? If my character disbelieving in something can make it not-real, that's just as silly as him being able to assert something and have it suddenly become real.

Feel free to get rid of red action boxes. If no one can remember why they were added after they're gone, leave 'em out, but I have a feeling that people will remember.

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Post by Tharloch » Mon May 29, 2006 10:19 am

Eldon wrote: I'm tempted to give everyone access to a blue box. Then this insane argument about what's "valid RP" vs. "non-GM sanctioned" RP can go the rubbish bin.

And, if I hear one more OOC argument about "well, if it's not a blue box, I figured they're just insane," I think I'll turn you into a newt to enhance your roleplay.
If this response makes me a newt, so be it, but I feel that "Your premise is what's wrong."

Its not about "valid" vs. "invalid", its about opt-out vs. opt-in. If you actaully turn me into a newt such that I cant use my healing skills, I can still "opt-out" by pretending it didn't happen and trying to run around healing as usual (or hide in the library), but I'd just be living in denial as I still wouldn't be able to heal anyone. When someone like Zues claims he is an all powerful god and has just turned me into a newt, I could "opt-in" and run around acting newtish and not heal, but if I accidently equip my moonstone, they'd be healed. It really does boggle my mind that you don't want to acknowledge a difference between the two. Both can be fun, both can be good for the game, but there is most certainly a difference.

Lots of people roleplay in all sorts of ways, large and small everyday. Sometimes its very innocuous and costs me nothing to play along, sometimes its gamebreaking and completely violates everything I've previously experienced about the way the Clan Lord world works. Everyone has to draw their own line somewhere about what to go along with. For all those that are "too far out" for me, roleplaying that said person is insane and delusional is the only option I have for not breaking my own roleplay. If I pretend they don't exist and/or didn't say what they just did, then I'm the one breaking character. Saying I think they are insane is my version of "opt-out", and I find it deeply disturbing if you really don't think I should have that option.

As Althea hinted before, Tessa did a lot of roleplay that was hard to fit into the Clan Lord world as most of us perceived it. She claimed to have knowledge from a mysterious mind from another dimension that was the "real her". She believed she was both a fighter and a healer, something that we are clearly told by Hekus/Fistus is not an option. She asked us to believe that what were clearly perceivable as two different people (Tessa/Dr. Malthus) were in fact the same individual. All of this ultimately forced me to classify her as "insane", her actions and claims seemed to fit that description rather well. On the whole, that didn't prevent run of the mill hunts and what not, but when she starting claiming she was investigating an illness, it seems perfectly reasonable to continue to have our characters assume this was just another element of her insanity. After all, her ability to do so at all was based on "knowledge from another dimension".

Then she got a blue box. Seeing dews pop out of someones head was rather convincing that what she had been saying was, in fact, not entirely insane. Sure, I could "opt-out" and pretend I didn't see dews come out, but then I'd be acting insane in everyone else's eyes. In character, this kind of forces you to question yourself quite a bit. If she was right about this, what about all the other stuff? Maybe I'm the insane one thinking I see two different people, thinking that I couldn't be a member of both the fighter and healer guild when all the time I could have. Out of character of course, I knew that it was just that this time the GMs had given her the ability to generate a blue box. But in character I couldn't see how to rationalize that what I knew of the world made sense. As you may have noticed if you read Babajagas journal at the time, I stopped playing Clan Lord for several months. When I came back, I pretty much gave up on roleplaying my character in any real way as it just involved too much emotional risk.

This thread has at least given me some better understanding of why the GMs decided to give the Separ to her as she was embracing the plot line you were making available. Sadly, it was the fact that it was she, whom embraced it that made me, and probably others, largely ignore the plot line for so long. At the time it was rather shoking that the GMs validated "knowledge from another dimension" as a viable method for solving a great mystery in the lands. Perhaps in fact, the GMs simply didn't know about that part of her claims, I don't know. Still, it caused a great deal of confusion and I hope this post helps you see why some of the negative feelings existed at the time.

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Post by Eldon » Tue May 30, 2006 5:35 am

Drablak wrote: Odly enough, this is the perfect thread to give as an exemple. Let's say that Tessa decided she had found a cure for the dewed and went to someone with '/action cures Babajaga of the dew with her hypo-spray', what then? What about all those who were still searching for the Separ at the time? How does Baba react to that? What if that was a blue box?
Great example!

So PWC Baba has been running with with this story line for ages and the GM is afk (so to speak) and another player's character goes through loads of research and supposedly finds a cure.

What would you do? Since the whole thing was opt-in anyway, there's absolutely no reason Baba couldn't have been cured/Dews put into remission by Tessa Separ-less. And, if and when the Separ reappears, maybe she comes out of remission and must be re-cured.

Meanwhile, the Blue Box Fanatics (BBFs) are twiddling their thumbs on KI somewhere complaining there's no Roleplay.
Last edited by Eldon on Tue May 30, 2006 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Eldon » Tue May 30, 2006 5:37 am

Skirwan wrote: The reason we don't treat every old action box as gospel is because there is literally no way for reality to remain logically consistent if we do.
RP is consensual. If others thing you have wings too, your characters can have wings. If 95% of the people think you have wings, then the other 5% are delusional or else your wings don't appear to certain people.

Roleplayers Find a Way. Think WWRD. (What would a roleplayer do?)
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Post by Drablak » Tue May 30, 2006 6:26 am

Eldon wrote:Great example!
Thanks :)

Eldon wrote:So PWC Baba has been running with with this story line for ages and the GM is afk (so to speak) and another player's character goes through loads of research and supposedly finds a cure.
Suppose that happens sooner, when the GM is still there and tons of people are actively looking for the Separ?
Eldon wrote:What would you do? Since the whole thing was opt-in anyway, there's absolutely no reason Baba couldn't have been cured/Dews put into remission by Tessa Separ-less. And, if and when the Separ reappears, maybe she comes out of remission and must be re-cured.
The question here is that this resolution may not satisfy Baba, or a number of other people that were preparing something similar, and perhaps better developped, or some people may have a problem with the use of a hypo-spray in a fantasy setting (I know I do), or someone already found the Separ and told no one for some unknown reason and all his/her covert work is down the drain...
Eldon wrote:Meanwhile, the Blue Box Fanatics (BBFs) are twiddling their thumbs on KI somewhere complaining there's no Roleplay.
See Tharloch excellent post regarding problems of consistency and how something arbritrary like this would/could turn a role-player into non-RPer.
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Post by Indigo » Tue May 30, 2006 7:27 am

I don't have time to quote all who wrote something I wish to respond to, so let me take a moment to simply write a few relevant tidbits:

Regarding Nox Sorora and interaction with others: This is a fine line to walk. I took much of my own "Noxie rp" out of TC and other public places due to other players who mentioned how they got tired of "sylvan melodrama." I don't want to ruin the fun of others, and others were getting on my OOC nerves by trying to do OOC things to annoy people like me who had fun playing that way. Instead of fighting for a little corner of TC, I decided to fade my interactions farther into the background. Other Nox Sorora do whatever they do, and I won't presume to speak for them.

Also, player attrition has shrunk our own ranks just as it has shrunk the general population, so the impression is that we are some kind of RP clique, when in fact we're just incredibly small now. And then there is the fact that I want to have fun, which means I don't care to sit in town (or use the sunstone) to have a constant and boring argument about Nox Sorora with the same 2-3 people. I think I can safely say other NS players feel the same way about that.

In general terms, Indigo is always IC, is always a Noxie, and in that way she is always bringing something of her individual Nox style to the general population. Some people don't get it, some don't like it, some ignore it, others are intrigued and ask questions and get involved. That's all good. And again I can't speak for other Nox players and their own style of interaction.

Major GM interaction with Nox Sorora basically ended with the blowing up of the Chapterhouse. An occasional sympathetic GM has taken up the Darshak-Nox connection and used it in the short term, but as far as I know there is no intent or desire to make it into a big storyline. It's of no consequence to me whether or not GM's ever get involved again. My fun does not depend on GM interaction in that manner.

I do wish more GM's would get involved with player driven RP, but that is also a fine line to walk. Which stories are going to get attention? It's hard to choose, I'm sure. I understand the impression of favoritism that causes OOC frustration. I don't like that frustration as it creates unhealthy divisions among players. I don't know how many other players have created an IC character and maintained a consistent style or story with them, though I know many have done so. I do know that being IC consistently is, for me, highly rewarding, with or without GM interaction.

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Post by Daimoth » Tue May 30, 2006 11:51 am

Indigo wrote:I do know that being IC consistently is, for me, highly rewarding, with or without GM interaction.
Yes. It is for me, too. But as you mentioned, the favoritism is enough to discourage anyone. If I pray to X deity IC, and you pray to Y, and GMs decide your deity is far more important, then it's much harder to continue in that line of roleplay. Much.

Especially when GMs think about players in such a closed-minded manner as this:
Eldon wrote:Meanwhile, the Blue Box Fanatics (BBFs) are twiddling their thumbs on KI somewhere complaining there's no Roleplay.
Kizmia itself is a *grand* roleplaying opportunity. And is practiced by quite a few. Not everyone just considers it as rank/coin central. Though that certainly may be a perk.

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Post by Skirwan » Tue May 30, 2006 3:47 pm

Eldon wrote:
Skirwan wrote: The reason we don't treat every old action box as gospel is because there is literally no way for reality to remain logically consistent if we do.
RP is consensual. If others thing you have wings too, your characters can have wings. If 95% of the people think you have wings, then the other 5% are delusional or else your wings don't appear to certain people.

Roleplayers Find a Way. Think WWRD. (What would a roleplayer do?)
No matter how many players agree that Skirwan has wings, he will never be able to fly. No matter how how many players agree that Skirwan can breath fire, he will never be able to kill so much as a rat with his fire breath.

Clan Lord is a simulated reality, and reality requires rules. If we choose to ignore the rules and mechanics that define the CL world, we might as well all be sitting in a circle making up a story together.
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

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Post by Eldon » Tue May 30, 2006 5:03 pm

Skirwan wrote: No matter how many players agree that Skirwan has wings, he will never be able to fly. No matter how how many players agree that Skirwan can breath fire, he will never be able to kill so much as a rat with his fire breath.

Clan Lord is a simulated reality, and reality requires rules. If we choose to ignore the rules and mechanics that define the CL world, we might as well all be sitting in a circle making up a story together.
I know you're trying to prove your point by using an extreme example, but it's bad form.

Are you saying that all or even most of RP is so absurd to insist that a character has wings (when he doesn't) or that all or most RP must be so outlandish that it breaks with the virtual "reality" of the genre? I do hope that's not your point. If it is, you're completely missing mine.

RP can take many, many forms within the fantasy genre and within the "rules" of Clan Lord and none of these necessarily require a blue box. To imply that all such RP to be valid require a blue box is disingenuous and completely shortsighted.

Yes, as I and others have previously stated, you need a consensual RP environment, but you do not need a GM-induced blue box to be valid. Is not Noivad the Sheriff? Is not Geraldus a wizard? Is not Prue a witch? Is not Chum a beach bum? Is not Merlisk a dentist? Etc. None of these require a blue box in the least and yet they simply "are."

You BBFs need to think outside the box. Literally.
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Post by Drablak » Tue May 30, 2006 5:13 pm

Eldon wrote:I know you're trying to prove your point by using an extreme example, but it's bad form.
Then perhaps answer my example which wasn't extreme? ;)
Eldon wrote:You BBFs need to think outside the box. Literally.
Good one! :D
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