Unfinished Story: Qual and Votenkath

A repository for stories, poetry, songs, limericks and tales.

Moderator: Vagile

Eldon
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 2869
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: Fairgrounds
Contact:

Post by Eldon » Tue May 30, 2006 5:47 pm

Drablak wrote:
Eldon wrote:I know you're trying to prove your point by using an extreme example, but it's bad form.
Then perhaps answer my example which wasn't extreme? ;)
This one?
Drablak wrote:Suppose that happens sooner, when the GM is still there and tons of people are actively looking for the Separ?
I've already answered this one in that a RPer would roll with it. Suppose Tessa's cure (to continue to use this example) was all just "fantasy" and "made up?" Then, maybe her "cure" worked like a placebo and didn't actually cure the people. They just thought they were cured and the dews went into remission. They had to properly cured with the Separ.

The point is that all of the RPers were having fun and agreed with the situation. None of this RP needed a blue box to be valid. I would venture to say that the GM, had s/he known about it, might have incorporated that into his story-line. Furthermore, just taking a passive approach of "entertain me!" isn't very fun for the GM in the long run. It has to be give-and-take or else it's too draining on the GMs and the RP gradually subsides.
Eldon, a Clan Lord GM
Cinnamon wrote:I think you're one of the best GMs I've ever been frustrated with. 11 years & counting. I'm a loyal CL addict & you're a big part of why. For being willing to stick your chin out, many thanks.

User avatar
Drablak
Exile
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:58 pm
Profession: Mystic
Race: Thoom
Player Status: Spambot
Contact:

Post by Drablak » Tue May 30, 2006 6:06 pm

Eldon wrote:The point is that all of the RPers were having fun and agreed with the situation. None of this RP needed a blue box to be valid. I would venture to say that the GM, had s/he known about it, might have incorporated that into his story-line. Furthermore, just taking a passive approach of "entertain me!" isn't very fun for the GM in the long run. It has to be give-and-take or else it's too draining on the GMs and the RP gradually subsides.
Assuming that Baba agreed with and played along Tessa's initiative, you're right that all of those RPers present are having fun. What about the others who were looking for the Separ? Perhaps they don't think it's fun for them that someone found a cure like this. Remember the reaction when the Separ was handed to Tessa? You think they'd react well to her deciding she had found it?

The point for me is that there is a need to maintain a consistent world and yes there are cases where we can RP without affecting the world, storylines, or others' fun and there are cases where we need to play within the limits of the world or the storylines.

BTW if you were to give everyone blue boxes, I guess you'd remove the "what looks like..." in the whatzits as well?
Cinnamon wrote:The actual concept of an overpowered Mystic registers as an oxymoron.

User avatar
Delirium
Winds of Dawn
Winds of Dawn
Posts: 337
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:32 am

Post by Delirium » Wed May 31, 2006 4:32 pm

What I feel some people are missing in this discussion is that there is no one right way to role-play. I started playing RPGs over a quarter of a century ago, and in that time, I've seen many different styles of role-play, most of which have been fun. While there are many dimensions to role-playing, lets look at what I consider the opposites of GM involvement:

"Fundamentalist" Role-playing: The GM is god and completely determines all aspects of the role-playing world. Control freaks enjoy GMing this sort of game. In extreme cases, the GM gives you a pre-rolled character and tells you what your personality traits are. While some Fundamentalist GMs have such god-complexes they bleed the fun out of the game, others are highly imaginative people with a very strong sense of story who run games that unfold as enormously complex choose-your-own adventure novels. To work, this type of role-playing involves a huge investment of GM-time and the GM often needs to spend more time preparing for the game than is spent actually playing.

"Co-operative" Role-playing: There is no GM and the players get together, make up their own characters and setting and act out the situations they find themselves in. The players are the GMs. For this to work well, you need a group of people who can play well with others. When everyone wants to be queen of the elves, it can get a bit unfun. However, with a group of imaginative people, it's a blast. I've seen this type of role-playing work with large groups of people in LARP situations.

As much as some people would like Clan Lord to be a fundamentalist role-play, the GMs just do not have the time to make it so. And in truth, even the games I've played where the GM took a strong hand, in those that lasted any time, the GM also took a great deal of player input. The GMs in clan lord seem to recognize the limits on their time and, as a result, encourage and give us tools so that we can engage in co-operative role-play. I happen to think that overall, Clanlord has been enriched by this co-operative role-playing. The question to me is not "is everyone's roll-playing consistent to the last degree?" but "is everyone having fun?" With such a large group of players and GMs, neither is actually possible - no matter how hard you try to make everything consistent, some "flaws" will creep in, and no matter how hard you try to make sure everyone is having fun all the time, someone will be unhappy some time. However, given a choice, I'd choose fun over consistent world. It's not that it's an either or situation, and some people would say that a consistent world increases their enjoyment (to a degree, I feel that way myself). But I'm flexible enough to sacrifice a bit of consistency for the sake of having more fun.

The plain fact is that the GM's just don't have enough time to come up with enough story-lines to keep all the role-players in the game happy. In some of the more "fundamentalist" role-playing games I've participated in, simple character creation and designing a character's background may take several hours of back and forth between the player and GM and the GM is constantly telling the players what they can and can't do. For some of my role-playing ideas I've tried asking for GM advice in Clan Lord, but not for a while because I found that the response rate was less than 50%. With the limits on GM time, I see a large degree of co-operative role play required to keep the game fun.

User avatar
Drablak
Exile
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:58 pm
Profession: Mystic
Race: Thoom
Player Status: Spambot
Contact:

Post by Drablak » Wed May 31, 2006 5:06 pm

Eldon wrote:RP is consensual. If others thing you have wings too, your characters can have wings. If 95% of the people think you have wings, then the other 5% are delusional or else your wings don't appear to certain people.

Roleplayers Find a Way. Think WWRD. (What would a roleplayer do?)
So you're ok with Skirwan flying, but a mystic with a shieldstone (for example only!) is not the CL-way? On the one hand we're supposed to be open and flexible and "find a Way" but Joe is inflexible about an old concept that has proven to not work. It seems like these are contradicting somehow, doesn't it?
Cinnamon wrote:The actual concept of an overpowered Mystic registers as an oxymoron.

User avatar
Drablak
Exile
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:58 pm
Profession: Mystic
Race: Thoom
Player Status: Spambot
Contact:

Post by Drablak » Wed May 31, 2006 5:15 pm

Delirium wrote:What I feel some people are missing in this discussion is that there is no one right way to role-play.
Agreed and they can co-exist in the same gameworld. As I mentionned I'm ok with the various styles as long as there is a balance.
Cinnamon wrote:The actual concept of an overpowered Mystic registers as an oxymoron.

Skirwan
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 2974
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:39 pm
Profession: Bloodmage
Race: Ghorak Zo
Player Status: Inactive
Location: SNN Planar News Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Skirwan » Wed May 31, 2006 5:31 pm

Eldon wrote:Are you saying that all or even most of RP is so absurd to insist that a character has wings (when he doesn't) or that all or most RP must be so outlandish that it breaks with the virtual "reality" of the genre? I do hope that's not your point. If it is, you're completely missing mine.

RP can take many, many forms within the fantasy genre and within the "rules" of Clan Lord and none of these necessarily require a blue box. To imply that all such RP to be valid require a blue box is disingenuous and completely shortsighted.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Just to clarify my position: Regardless of what consensual make-believe players may engage in, there is always an underlying reality as enforced by the game engine.

I make no value judgement about the relative absurdity of claiming to have wings versus -- for instance -- claiming to have divined the cure for a magical disease based on your knowledge as a visitor from an alternate dimension, I simply make the broad and easily justified assertion that play-initiated action boxes by design can have no effect on the underlying state of the game world, while game-initiated blue action boxes can and do have an effect on the game state.

When a blue box gives me money, I have more coins. When a blue box infects me with lyfelidaeism, I get sick. When a blue box says Babajaga's no longer dewed, then Baba's cured.

I can and do notice player action boxes and accept them when they are reasonable, but to claim (as you seem to be) that all action boxes are equally valid and to suggest that players should not discriminate between player- and server-initiated actions seems to me to be an express road to insanity.
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

Eldon
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 2869
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: Fairgrounds
Contact:

Post by Eldon » Wed May 31, 2006 7:05 pm

Drablak wrote: So you're ok with Skirwan flying, but a mystic with a shieldstone (for example only!) is not the CL-way?
Define "ok with." I argued for mystics having shieldstones. A decision was made that they shouldn't. I've lived long enough to know when to argue. I accepted the decision and went on with my life.
Eldon, a Clan Lord GM
Cinnamon wrote:I think you're one of the best GMs I've ever been frustrated with. 11 years & counting. I'm a loyal CL addict & you're a big part of why. For being willing to stick your chin out, many thanks.

User avatar
Drablak
Exile
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:58 pm
Profession: Mystic
Race: Thoom
Player Status: Spambot
Contact:

Post by Drablak » Wed May 31, 2006 7:17 pm

Eldon wrote:
Drablak wrote: So you're ok with Skirwan flying, but a mystic with a shieldstone (for example only!) is not the CL-way?
Define "ok with." I argued for mystics having shieldstones. A decision was made that they shouldn't. I've lived long enough to know when to argue. I accepted the decision and went on with my life.
I know you did Eldon and I appreciate it, I'm using this as an example not to put you on the spot, but more in terms of the perceived (from my POV) contradiction in those two things: everything is ok in RP (Skirwas flying) but we can't find an acceptable, if convoluted, way (mystics can use the power of their mind to keep critters at bay) to make changes in the base concept or premise of the game (mystics are the information class).

Of course not everything is ok in RP. Skirwan can't fly and me roleplaying I have a shieldstone is going to look ridiculous as soon as the rat kills me. But it's ok because we both used red boxes so the world makes sense to those watching us.
Cinnamon wrote:The actual concept of an overpowered Mystic registers as an oxymoron.

Skirwan
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 2974
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:39 pm
Profession: Bloodmage
Race: Ghorak Zo
Player Status: Inactive
Location: SNN Planar News Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Skirwan » Wed May 31, 2006 7:23 pm

Drablak wrote:Of course not everything is ok in RP. Skirwan can't fly and me roleplaying I have a shieldstone is going to look ridiculous as soon as the rat kills me.
Actually, Skirwan can fly. I was mistaken, apparently the old boy still has a few tricks up his sleave.

He can't do it at will, of course...

:/
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

Eldon
CL GM
CL GM
Posts: 2869
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:04 pm
Location: Fairgrounds
Contact:

Post by Eldon » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:58 am

Skirwan wrote:
Drablak wrote:Of course not everything is ok in RP. Skirwan can't fly and me roleplaying I have a shieldstone is going to look ridiculous as soon as the rat kills me.
Actually, Skirwan can fly. I was mistaken, apparently the old boy still has a few tricks up his sleave.

He can't do it at will, of course...

:/
:lol:

Skirwan's alluding to the fact that a blue box appeared on him last night that said, "Skirwan is flying."

Okay, okay...I thought it funny.
Eldon, a Clan Lord GM
Cinnamon wrote:I think you're one of the best GMs I've ever been frustrated with. 11 years & counting. I'm a loyal CL addict & you're a big part of why. For being willing to stick your chin out, many thanks.

Skirwan
Dwarven Militia
Dwarven Militia
Posts: 2974
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:39 pm
Profession: Bloodmage
Race: Ghorak Zo
Player Status: Inactive
Location: SNN Planar News Headquarters
Contact:

Post by Skirwan » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:18 am

Eldon wrote:
Skirwan wrote:
Drablak wrote:Of course not everything is ok in RP. Skirwan can't fly and me roleplaying I have a shieldstone is going to look ridiculous as soon as the rat kills me.
Actually, Skirwan can fly. I was mistaken, apparently the old boy still has a few tricks up his sleave.

He can't do it at will, of course...

:/
:lol:

Skirwan's alluding to the fact that a blue box appeared on him last night that said, "Skirwan is flying."

Okay, okay...I thought it funny.
Yes, and for the rest of his life (or until I forget) Skirwan will fondly recall the time he flew, and wish that he could remember how he did it. He'll tell his friends, persist with the story in the face of their doubts, jump up and down trying to repeat the trick...

Because, you see, the blue box means it actually happened. =p
“However,” said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that none of them could miss a word, “you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me.”

User avatar
Starsword Eojek
Exile
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:33 pm
Profession: Fighter
Race: Fen'neko
Player Status: Spambot
Location: Houston
Contact:

Re: Unfinished Story: Qual and Votenkath

Post by Starsword Eojek » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:21 pm

Qual chose to become what he was by his own free will. The sylph embracing a power that turned him to be it's agent, it's hand, it's mouth. In his hunger and stupor, Qual murdered almost every living thing on his island home. All those that raised and loved him; slaughtered and eaten or converted. Death born of desire for power and vengeance... it's an old story. For those of you who believed his sory-ing and came to be there when he was finally laid low; I'm hoping you didn't know the facts. It would explain the gross inaction, and why you didn't throw his shackled carcass into the Ha'and.

According to the woman who bore the Separ previously, it is a creature, a hunger that moves about the deep and consumes. It is the dew's mother, and an old power that found a banished malcontent wandering the leagues of wet dark. It is migratory, moving from place to place, though the how wasn't mentioned. The Separ was the tool meant to stop it, to bring about justice and to cease the spread and had been held by its last user for an unknown time. The woman who bore the though-shaped scepter was rumored to have died soon after she arrived unto Puddleby, though not before passing it onto one Doctor Mathus, a healer. The hows of her death are unknown to me. Was it old age, or was her life force stripped to power this tool of deliverance? Was she murdered by an infected?

Living fires and emotion fueled her Separ. An individual couldn't swing it for very long, nor could they hoard it. It channels the emotions and life forces that well up through the heart and hands that guide it; and can be used by one for only so long. After a few infected had been cured, it needs a new source, a new host. When my time came, I would not wield it, nor touch it. I hated it and still do. I had brooded over its location for long months, following lead after lead. I hate that it came so easily and wasn't found atop a cavern alter, or within a pool of purest water. For me, it was anticlimactic that it was simply given over, rather than found. In the end, the Separ ended up in Yor's meaty fist and heavily down on Quall's undying skull, and what loose end kept me to Puddleby was gone, so I left Puddleby for good.

Where is Qual now? The man is gone I think. He was a thief before his temporary undeath and has swindled his way to freedom. Where he is now can only be guessed. Maybe he still huddles in some corner the libraries sanctum, or rightly dead having been drowned in the sea. The Deep Bubbling, may have moved on, though who knows. For now when you find yourself in the leagues of dark, where the slime grows thick, and the stench of death and rot is old, be vigilant.

As for Votenkath; he and his are undead. I can only presume this was out of desperation, the ultimate results of the long siege, or a misguided intent on fighting fire with fire. They are best left alone to wander their castle tomb.

-Leogic

Post Reply